Are these Red Flags????

[Sienna]

Hey guys.
I dont know where to start, but I'm worried that something is wrong, with my T.
Just come out of a session with her, and i feel bummed out.
Not because of what we talked about- (sure, it bumms me out)- but its more because of what she said, and also because of what she *didnt say*.

I dont know how to trust my intuition, but I'm listening to that something inside that is telling me that i dont feel good after seasons sometimes and that I'm doubting her.
I have always had this...not every session- some are great and she seems different.
I realise now looking back, that with narc X, if felt this way, - not good like something was wrong, like he wasnt emotionally there for me or present emotionally, as well as a general feeling that something was wrong.
Then things were ok, and i felt better, then it felt like something was wrong again only i never listened or trusted my intuition, and thought it was just me or that i was emotional flash backing or something.
He always said I'm irrational and that its me.

I called T asking if she could talk (it was urgent) and said shed contact me.
She called me but i missed her call because i overslept when i finally got to sleep that night- due to not sleeping much at all.
I text her to explain what happened, and
T didnt reply to my text to let me know that she couldnt contact me again that week.
So I didnt hear her for a week.

Is that wrong?
Am i making excuse thinking...
We didnt have a session that week-
because she was off so:
. It could have been bad circumstances that she was in - family stuff- anything, -
so thats why she didnt even text me.
or
.that she is too busy to text (who knows how many other clients she contacts outside of sessions)
or
.She sees lots of people, so she forgets...

She text me yesterday and apologised saying she had to get a flight, so she couldnt get back to me.
Am i wrong in thinking she is a bit late in letting me know that?
She asked if i still wanted to talk...so i took a risk and said yes...
So she rang me
She said-
*So, this is your time to talk about whatever you want to talk about-
so off you go...*
and i just froze.
There is so much to talk about, and i didnt know where to begin and her saying that scared me.

Is this a red flag?-
After one session with her, i text her to thank her for asking questions to get me to open up.
I told her i find it difficult to talk, so questions are really helpful.
It seems like she forgot this when we were on the phone.
Does she forget because she sees lots of people?
That person that is her- i built up in my head what talking to her would be like...and it wasnt how i thought it would be.
I was so upset after the call that i cried and was angry with myself, but i had to hold it together as i was around others and others that wouldnt understand or be the most supportive.

Im not sure if I'm not seeing things correctly..or if I'm imagining things, as all ive known from FOO and other friends and X, is narcissistic relationships.
X does things and did things- to intentionally hurt me T thinks.
He would know things, know how i felt about someitng, or what i wanted- he would ask...and then he would do the exact opposite-
or just ignore things that i told him.
I know he cant remember everything, but i wonder how much of it he did on purpose to hurt me.
Im worried that she is doing this.

Today in session, she didnt talk as much as usual.
She's not too much of a talker- which is good-
but i felt i got less from her than usual.
I hope she's not going through a bad patch.
I cant help wondering if -
maybe she likes to watch me squirm when there is silence.

And she's not there to change my opinion- she said that to me-
but why do i feel unsupported when i say something such as, its so stupid...after ive told her something truthful
I say it because I worry she is judging (as i cant tell what she's thinking from her silence)
But she just leaves it at that
and it sounds attention seeking me saying those things as though I'm probing for a reaction from her, but its automatic, i cant help doing it.
I know she's not me and not in my situation, but she has always seemed just so relaxed, and to me, sometimes it comes across as if she just doesnt care, even though she is sitting up in her chair and listening to me- and she *seems present*.
It just feels to me like she doesnt care *enough*

I always felt this with X. There was something missing, that being, genuine caringess about how i felt and what i was saying and there was lack of empathy.
My dad was like this and my mum too.
Its on video footage of our arguments and discussions (X and I) -we recorded to try and help us see what was wrong with us.

I told her i was afraid to go cook in this place and why.
She said, *so, are you MAKING AN EFFORT to go and cook something?*
That made me feel uncomfortuble- as thought I'm NOT making an effort-
as though i can help this
and i told her before she said that, that I'm pushing myself to be around others.

Another red flag:
She didnt pick up on the signs of what partner was doing when i told her -
and ive talked about partner for ages when i was with him.
Today i talked about narcissistic abuse, what he had been doing-
and she didnt seem surprised or anything.
She hadn't heard of the terms used when discussing narcissistic abuse-
and this worries me.
Doesnt mean she wont be able to help me-
but-
when i first wen to see her, i asked her if she had heard of narcissism, and if she understands that its not ALWAYS me-
but that i am the way i am- BECAUSE of narcissistic abuse.

This is all so confusing.
She also said that i didnt need to ring her in the end about the refuge I'm staying at, because i managed to sort out what to do myself in terms of a refuge and weather to go or not.
which is the main reason i called last week in the first place.
That is true, and i realised that myself and i was so proud of that-
even though I'm tired of having to be strong all the time.
Im tired of suffering and feeling so bad and alone.

But what she said felt like an anbonaoment.
I know she's my T so she cant care about me In the way that i want her to.
But i wished that she said to me that i can still call if i need to.
She said to leave it next time and calm down then figure out on my own what to do , before calling someone.
She said i should trust myself more.

X said a lot of correct things- caring things-
but something was really off.
What if she's doing this too?
I have thought this for a long time, and i dont know how to listen to that voice that is telling me to be careful.

Oh yes, and i cant remember in what order it was said, but i said-
that I'm not ungrateful for having a safe place to stay...but I'm finding it hard there, and this is therapy so i have to be honest.
She said, yes, but it is good to have a place to stay.
Im  worried that she thinks I'm moaning.

She said we can talk about these red flags, as i blunderingly mentioned it one time,
and i told her i was worried she would convince me she didnt mean this or that,
(just like X did), so i think i have to figure this out on my own-
cos she could be very good at manipulating me.

One part of my brain says she is fine, another says not.
I know this is called cognitive dissonance, so do you guys think I'm experiencing that?
I just dont know what to do and ive thought this for a long time
How long should i go on like this- waiting it out??
Is all this just cos I'm extra emotional at the moment?

ps. i always doubt, then need to see her again as the week goes on, and all doubt goes away.

Thanks a lot for reading.

[Danaus plexippus]

This reminds me a bit of my former shrink. I posted about him. /I think the title was "My shrink says I'm sick, I have a disease" or something like that. If you can find it, you're welcome to read it and see if any of the advice I was given is helpful. Also do you watch Melanie Tonia Evans? She gets heavy into the narcissist's B.S.

[Sienna]

Thanks Danaus

I am definitely going to read your post.
Ooh, i will check out Melanie as well. Thanks so much for both.

[arpy1]

hi sienna, don't know if i am understanding correctly but from what u writ e it seems to me that you may have a T with a somewhat 'blank screen' style of working with clients.  i had one of those, and i found it very traumatising, simply becos of the similarities (in my perception) between the way she was with me and the way the people who had abused me were. i felt the lack of empathy and the feeling of never knowing where she was coming from and it made me feel teriibly insecure and have all the same sorts of doubts and fears that you describe. 

my feeling is that perhaps she is just not a good fit for you, that blank screen type therapists are not helpful for cptsd sufferers becos of the nature of the interpersonal trauma they have suffered.  i hope this helps you feel it's not your fault, and probably not even hers that things are this way, just perhaps her style is not appropriate for you?

[Sienna]

Hey Arpy1
Thanks so much for replying to my post and for telling me what you think.

I always thought she seemed kind of- blank.
I'm so sorry you had this experience and they you were not happy with your T.
Did you manage to find another who isn't so blank?
You help me to understand why it is so bothersome.
It's confusing, because sometimes she is more...dynamic? -talkative and expression ate.
She is empathic most of the time Abd age said that if I'm confused by something she's say, I can call get it text and ask after the session or in the week.

msyve I should bring it up with her. I don't want to not see her because if this and maybe it's more because she is fine a lot of the time. Maybe it's trauma bonding or something- even if she isn't being blank on purpose.

Thanks so much Arpy. It's helped me to understand this a little more- the "possible reasons" you describe as to what "might" be happening.
Thank you 😊

[snailspace]

Thank you Arpy and Sienna for originally posting.  I'd like to get better at finding the right therapist for myself.  I don't trust my judgement any longer, so reading your posts has been useful and hope you don't mind me joining the conversation.

I definitely had the blank screen T at times, when she wasn't talking that is.  This was number 2 who wasn't at all good.  Looking back I ended up using some of the tactics I used to attempt to understand my mother, in other words because T 2 didn't give me feedback I ended up "reading" her and 2nd guessing.  T 2 didn't  suggest how I should behave any other way (such as by encouraging questions or feed back), instead criticised me for doing this. She didn't keep the connection going at all in the "therapeutic relationship", she only talked about it!  I think you need to listen to your red flags Sienna and if it all feels familiar to you then it probably is, this may not be at all about projection but maybe about her abilities.   I used to feel put on the spot also which felt very nerve wracking and T really should be  more sensitive to your needs I think.  But I'm no expert!

T 3 was a "relational" style which was a lot better for me and I felt a lot closer somehow and didn't have to keep guessing and interpreting what was happening because T 3 was very clear, reassuring and explained everything to me.  I stopped going to her for other reasons but not because she wasn't good.

[Danaus plexippus]

I had one T that was so blank, she didn't remember anything from one week to the next. If my name wasn't on the cover of my file I doubt she would have even remembered that and she was my insurance company's preferred provider. To get real help I had to go from a $20 co-pay to $150 out of pocket which I could not afford on a weekly basis. My out of network T was excellent but I just didn't have the money to keep seeing her. Now I'm covered under the Zadroga Act as I was at the WTC on 9/11. The doctors and therapists there are very interesting. Some in very good ways, some in not so good ways as I have described elsewhere (My Shrink says I'm Sick, I have a Disease).

[Sienna]

No, no, its absolutely fine Snailspace.
I always worry about jumping on others threads too.

I know how it is to not trust your own judgement. I do really hope that you can find a good therapist for you.
Gosh, im so sorry you have been through two therapists already. That really sucks.

Looking back I ended up using some of the tactics I used to attempt to understand my mother,
Yes, i relate to this, but not sure if I'm repeating a pattern from the past with her in my attempt to understand her.
Maybe its just me, feeling afraid to bring things up, worrying she will twist things or manipulate me and give me the answers i want and not the truth.

How awful that she criticised you for asking questions, and asking for feedback.
I think that, even though it must of sucked, leaving her was probably for the best from the sounds of things.
You must of had to be really brave to do that, and its so great that you did a healthy thing for yourself, for your own well being.

Thank you so much for your opinion. Sometimes she reminds me of my neglectful dad.
You mention being *reasuring*.
When I'm crying, she is not always reassuring. I need to hear that it is ok to cry, and i stuff my tears and swallow them in front of her, and she doesnt say any tog.
I keep thinking that she is waiting for me to trust her over time, and that over time i will just naturally cry.
I have been crying more, but if big sobs want to come out, i automatically hold them in or disassociate, so then it just goes away and i dont feel what I was feeling anymore.
Its confusing because sometimes she says that crying is good, or...its ok, and she will pass me the  tissue box.

Pete Walker- are you familiar with him?
He talked about the relational side of therapy helping to heal us.
He says is very important.
I can send you some links to from Pete Walker stuff if you like. He has a few books too that he wrote.

oh and ps. you are so amazing for going back to therapy after having bad luck with your T's.
I do hope you can find another therapist- if that is what you would like.
there may be some help on the forum regarding that...not sure. 

[Danaus plexippus]

I once had a pair of Ts  who would grin like spiders whenever they made anyone cry. Really creped me out.

[sanmagic7]

finding the right fit with a therapist can be a hit and miss kind of thing.   just know that it's not you.  and, it may not be the therapist, either.   i agree with arpy1 on that.  but, it seems that you have a lot of doubts and misgivings about this therapist, and that, right there, is a red flag to me. 

i had an awful experience with my first therapist, on many levels, but one that stood out was the idea you mentioned about not feeling good after a session.  not feeling good about yourself?  i don't think that's a good thing.  not feeling good about the way the therapist responded?  not feeling good about how the session went?  also, i don't think those are good things.  to my mind, a therapist should always find a way to help and encourage a client to feel good about him/herself, no matter how difficult the session itself might have been.  we're all going to have difficult sessions at times, when we're confronted with ourselves, our own responsibilities in a relationship, (no, i'm not blaming the victim here, just that we must always look at if or how we might have done things differently in the past, and what we need to change for the future) and/or we went through a sensitive subject that brought our emotions to the fore.   still, no matter what the content of the session, i do believe that the client's well-being comes first.   if nothing else, you show great courage and strength in asking for help, and you deserve the best help you can get.

there are lots of therapists who are very aware of this dynamic, and work hard to provide it for their clients.   i think there is nothing wrong with wanting a therapist who gives that to you, so there is nothing wrong with looking for a different therapist when you don't get it where you are.   it's difficult to have to change therapists, i know, but i also know that when you have one with whom you have a good fit, it makes all the difference in the world.  best to you, sienna. 

[Kizzie]

Hi Sienna and all - there are some good articles here that may be helpful (scroll down) - http://www.outofthestorm.website/therapy-resources-1.

[Sienna]

Yes, that would creep me out too Danaus!
Definitely not what you need from a therapist! 

[Sienna]

Hey Kizzie,
Thank you so much for that! Theres many links on there to different websites.
One website - good therapy.org even explains what empathy is. Very good, thank you.

[Kizzie]

You're very welcome 

[Sienna]

Hi Sanmagic7

Thank you for reminding me that its not *me*.
I would understand if i was being difficult...and because I'm so closed off...i went into this one talking..and talking helps to fill the silences....unless she says something that i think...what??..and i freeze.

Do you think that its a red flag that sometimes, she is just so great, and i come back feeling better? 
It seems that its either that, or if feel bad in regards to her.

Im sorry to hear that you had an awful experience with your first therapist.
Its not really that i dont feel good *about myself*, I did once, because she didnt explain what she meant, she was quite blunt. I felt terrible that evening and the entire week ahead after the session.
(Looking back, i think that my narc X wanted me to quit therapy...as he didnt do his usual and tell me that its me thinking things in my head, things that are not based in reality.)-but thats another topic.
I usually feel like someitng was missing from the session.
Sometimes i dont want to leave- and i think that i can differentiate between the two- the longing feeling i have for her sometimes, and the other feeling that she wasnt entirely present and that she lacked empathy.
Its hard to see- if the lack of empathy exists, because she will nod, or smile, or look concerned...and not say much at times...but if she yawned or looked away (which she sometimes does but we talked about that), then id be able to trust that it is lack of empathy more.
So yes, not feeling great about the way she responded.
Sometimes, she tells me we have say, five minutes left, other times, she wont, and its awful if i have been crying.

I can spot the sessions in which it was difficult because of *me*, because of the topics disgussed- or if its just difficult for me to leave because i feel a hole in my life where my parents should be.
And sure, accepting responsibility is hard. Its more the way she responds or ...doesnt respond...when I'm telling her how i feel, or how the week has been (and i only bring the difficult stuff from the week into the room)
And- if i rambled on and on and all attention was on me completely..id understand her..absence.

I know ive talked about this, but i cant imagine changing therapist. Not at the moment anyway. Ill see how it goes. I have a soft spot for her, and maybe thats bad if she is not good for me...but yes...

Thank you so much for giving your input...best wishes to you too