Are these Red Flags????

[Sienna]

Hey Somagic7

Gosh, my reply to your post sounded really harsh. I just read it back, so I'm sorry about that.
And i think that i could have asked you if you though you could be invalidating your own pain, instead of phrasing it the way i did.
Sorry about that.

Im so glad i didnt trigger you, and your reply was lovely. Thank you. 

I think that you are absolutely right. There are others in the world who have not sought justice- or when sought- justice was not given.
(god. i thought you were saying to me to buck it up and stop talking because others have had to manage). Im so sorry i mis read a really nice and well meant message from you.
That is actually really ..whats the word? comforting? not comforting...but provides some hope that i will be able to deal with this too.
but, within the idea of the cycles, they don't stay as long, they're not as venomous, and i'm able to accept more readily that things are the way they are, and i can't fix them to be the way i'd like them to be. 
That sounds really good to me.
I guess angering and grieving will get all those feelings out.
I know that anger apparently can be hard to let go of. I guess it just takes time.
I am so glad that you dont think you are stuffing your feelings. I understand now.
Your anger might not be as strong or last for as long, maybe because you are letting it out?
Im so glad journaling helps you. It is a good outlet, and so is pounding on stuff and
yelling obscenities! 
haha, thats a funny image, but a good one.
It helps me too (the rare times i can go there if i am angry, which is rare. The anger is comming up so maybe i can heal it and these relationship patterns.

so, sienna, i'm sorry if it came across in any way that i might be invalidating your feelings or thoughts about your situation. or trying to suggest that you should be able to cope differently than you already are. 
Its ok. I might have just misread. And if it was written in that way, thats not what you meant. All is ok 

i know that a lot of times the hurt and pain and suffering on a psychological level are much worse than what we might feel physically. 
Im glad you understand this too.

i think you're doing a great job of using this forum for venting, for being vulnerable, for asking for help.  that takes real courage.  i will just say that i encourage you to keep coming back.  we're here for you.
Thank you. We are here for you too. 

[sanmagic7]

there has been a long period of time in my life when i was numb about anger.  i didn't feel it, but felt sad instead.  i think anger was something neg. that i was taught not to show, so i transformed it into a more acceptable feeling.  i learned along the way that anger is just another emotion, is natural, and needs to be expressed, released, let out.  as my therapist told me, just don't hurt yourself or anyone else. 

there were 4 major people in my life who, i believe, are narcs - 2 husbands, my oldest daughter, and a therapist - and who harmed me, wounded me emotionally.  probably, about 2 years ago, i began getting in real touch with my anger, and i decided to draw the way my mind's eye saw these people.  whew!  i'm no artist, but i drew what they represented to me, how i saw them in my llfe.  the husbands had two faces (kind of like a picasso drawing!), each in an opposite direction, scary eyes, and lots of words of betrayal around them.  the therapist took on the aspect of a snake, with a forked tongue to represent the words she used with me to be manipulated and abused by her, and i wrote lots of words on that drawing as well.  my daughter took on the aspect of a vampire, large fangs with drops of blood dripping from them (she'd been sucking my blood for many years, in a manner of speaking), and lots of words for her, too.  (i am a word person, so putting words on those pictures was important to me).  i made copies of these pictures, about 10 each, and hung them around my workplace at home, just surrounded myself with representations of what i had been living with, attempting to survive under.  it took a few weeks of working in this atmosphere, constantly reminding myself of what these people had done to me, until i finally had enough.  one day, i took the picture of one of them down, took a nail file, put the picture on my bed (i use my bed for a lot of anger work!) and began stabbing and shouting.  what i believe i was doing with all that was admitting and accepting the power i had given these people, and by killing the pictures of them that i had drawn, i was killing that power, and taking my own back.  i didn't do them all in one day - it's pretty exhausting work!  and, it probably isn't for everyone.  but, it helped me a lot, not only to get in touch with that frozen anger i'd been holding inside, but to finally release it in a safe, non-harmful way.  it took several months for me to finish them all off, take down the pictures, tear them into pieces, and walk that whole bunch of garbage out of my house to the trash.  i had done this on my own because i didn't have a therapist at the time, so i'm not necessarily recommending that anyone else do this without therapeutic help.

after all this time, i'm discovering more layers of anger, and it's getting easier, and quicker, to get rid of it.  the cycles.  i still have a problem feeling angry at the time, but am working on that, too.   someone in this forum suggested i do inner child work, which i'm in the process of now.  i have learned that c-ptsd demands a multi-modal attack because it's, well, complex, not straightforward.  so, i'm coming at it from as many angles as i can.

i'm not suggesting this is something you must do, i'm just sharing an example of what has helped me.  i think different things are more useful to some people than to others, and, also, are helpful at different times and places on our healing journeys.  and we all must find what works best for us.

thanks for your support, sienna.  it is truly appreciated.  when i get stumped, i do post a question or problem and ask for help, advice, and/or suggestions.  this place has helped me a lot, especially in not feeling like i'm all alone or on my own.  and i'm so grateful you and everyone else is here for each other.  it's great!

[Sienna]

Sanmagic7, thank you for sharing what helped you with your anger. I know you are still struggling accessing anger and that your still working on it.

there has been a long period of time in my life when i was numb about anger.  i didn't feel it, but felt sad instead.  i think anger was something neg. that i was taught not to show, so i transformed it into a more acceptable feeling. 
Yes, i understand this.
No feelings were allowed for me growing up, especially anger.
T said to me that its been so long, that it seems that other feelings such as sadness are comming out. The times i have expressed anger (alone), afterwards i cry and one time i was very anxious and ended up being physically sick.
So perhaps thats why you feel sad? Sure you can feel sad instead. I think i have this too if i am angry and can't express it. It comes out in tears.

i learned along the way that anger is just another emotion, is natural, and needs to be expressed, released, let out.  as my therapist told me, just don't hurt yourself or anyone else. 


Im so sorry to hear that you were hurt by so may in your life. It must be very difficult with your daughter, and to be betrayed by your own therapist, - ugh. I am glad that you are still pursuing this journey, even though your therapist let you down.

Putting imagery and expression to these people and the feelings that you have regarding these people and how they treated you, how you feel as result of their actions and them being in your life, i think it sounds great, and very creative. I think that betrayal is a big part of Npd behaviour, and to express it through words and images sounds good. I think it would be good to put it on paper and make it more real as i think that it can eat you up inside.

Do you mind if i ask something?  Did you want to purposefully put the pictures around the house to remind you of what they had done to you? ... so that that would encourage you to feel anger that was blocked?

what i believe i was doing with all that was admitting and accepting the power i had given these people, and by killing the pictures of them that i had drawn, i was killing that power, and taking my own back. 
That sounds amazing.

i had done this on my own because i didn't have a therapist at the time,
I think thats very brave and very admirable that you wanted to access your anger and work on recovery, despite not seeing a therapist at that time.

Frozen anger is a good way to describe it. I guess it really does just stay in the body until its realised, and it can rear its head when triggered (in my own experience, but sometimes still cant let it out as the dissociative shutter comes up). I guess that means that, just because you might not feel it, it is still there. I always thought that getting angry was pointless, if you are not angry. But perhaps i am. I do feel it sometimes and a lot lately in regards to narc x, though i am now numb again but it still can pop up.

I didnt know that there were layers to anger.
i still have a problem feeling angry at the time, but am working on that, too.   
:thumb

Its great that you are doing inner child work.
Do you mind if i ask you, what the work involves? Im thinking that it might be more than talking to your inner child, and trying to comfort him / her.

i have learned that c-ptsd demands a multi-modal attack because it's, well, complex, not straightforward.  so, i'm coming at it from as many angles as i can.
Yes, i think you are right there. Do you have anyone to help you with it all? Such as a therapist?

About the support, any time...you are welcome.
You are helping me too. You sharing your experience, the words you use...help me to understand things and helps me to put words to things...and to also know that you feel those things too.
I agree, this forum is a great place. I hope you keep posting. 

ps. i realise that i have been spelling your name wrong...so, my apologies!

[sanmagic7]

off to see my therapist now.  will answer your questions at a later time, not sure if today or tomorrow.  just wanted to let you know that you are not walking thru this storm alone!

[Sienna]

aw, thank you Sanmagic7. They is so thoughtful.
I hope it goes well with your therapist. Hope you can take good care of yourself. 

[sanmagic7]

hey, sienna,

hope your day is going well.  my session w/ my therapist was kind of trippy.  she's young, not really versed in trauma therapy, not familiar at all w/ c-ptsd, and she's mexican, here in mexico.  we're doing some work on my being married to a mexican man, cultural differences and such, and she's also getting enlightened on what kind of woman i am, and how the culture i was raised in, very sheltered, not knowing much of the world, male-dominated, lower-middle class was very much like the culture of my husband.  she was very surprised that all americans aren't as portrayed in the media, or who come here w/ their big houses and cars and gated communities.  she'll be able to write a book when we're done.   lol!

anyway, back to your questions.  looking back, i believe i put those pictures up in order to not only get myself out of denial about what kinds of people they were (this was before i knew the term npd), but also how really nasty, hurtful, and harmful they were to me. and, yes, looking at these pictures helped me stop making excuses for them, thus freeing up my anger.  ***i don't recommend anyone do this without their therapist.  and, sienna, you mentioned disassociation, which is a big red flag for doing this stuff on your own.  please, don't do it without therapeutic help.  this stuff works differently for everyone, at different levels, and in different ways.  ***

my inner child work has involved the visual, tactile, written, and spoken images and words.  i just came at it from every angle i could think of, whatever i felt had been missing from my parents that i needed as a child.  like, i started giving myself hugs every day.  that sort of thing.

yes, absolutely, i have help.  i have my therapist, and a massage therapist who specializes in pressure point therapy to release emotions, etc., that have been stored in my body.  i also have this forum, caring husband, and friends who listen to me.  i want to cover this from every direction i can.

well, sienna, i hope you are able to continue to move forward.  sometimes it's baby steps, sometimes a small leap here and there, sometimes even a step backward.  but, i think that the more we learn and understand, the cycles continue moving with more clarity and ease, and less backlash.  it's a process.  keep being patient with yourself, be kind to yourself, and treat yourself well.  i'm doing the same, thank you.  asking those questions of me was a level of validation, which i appreciate.  thank you for that, too.  and i hope any problems you've had with your therapist are getting ironed out, you're feeling more comfortable, and more able to trust your gut.  i think you're doing a really good job.

[Sienna]

Hey Sanmagic7,

Im sorry that your T session was trippy.
I hope that she can help you even though she doesnt know about Cptsd, and not experienced in Trauma therapy.
Not being experienced in Trauma work is a huge red flag for me as aprently in order to work through you trauma/s with someone, it needs to be someone who knows about trauma, and how to help a client with trauma.
Hopefully she can learn about Cptsd. I have heard that therapists see it as multiple trauma, and my X's T said that his T said that Complex PTSD is an american term for it.
I hope you and your H can work on things if you have cultural differences and or similarities.
Its not surprising to me that your H has a similar culture to the one you was raised in, as i know we tend to unconsciously repeat familiar patterns, even if they are bad patterns.

she was very surprised that all americans aren't as portrayed in the media, or who come here w/ their big houses and cars and gated communities.  she'll be able to write a book when we're done.   lol!
Lol!

, i believe i put those pictures up in order to not only get myself out of denial about what kinds of people they were (this was before i knew the term npd), but also how really nasty, hurtful, and harmful they were to me.
Yes, i thought this might be the case, but trying to get it into your head how really nasty hurtful and harmful they were- umm, i think that is important and i never thought of that.

looking at these pictures helped me stop making excuses for them, thus freeing up my anger. 
Yay!

Was it bad for you when you did this with out your therapist? is that why you dont recommend doing this alone?
How come dissociation is a big red flag to not do this alone?  Could you explain what you mean by that?
I dont feel i could do this alone right now. I feel i am too blocked. I feel it would be like trying to force myself to feel things i dont feel.
I always thought that dissociation would mask the anger etc. (so there is no point doing this)..but it masks it so that it wont be as painful.
Do you mean, that if you are disassociating from pain, then you are not ready to experience that pain? So it would be too much to experience it?

Thank you for explaining to me what inner child work is about.
Im thinking now, that its probably very personal for everyone, and thank you for sharing something so persona. I didnt think it would be. I imagined you to be learning from a text book or something, but i know the real work isn't like that.

whatever i felt had been missing from my parents that i needed as a child. 
i started giving myself hugs every day. 
Aw. That is so great. I never even thought of doing that, but i like the sound of that.
The first time i met her *properly*, i hugged her, and felt so at peace, being with her and feeling what she felt for once. Its never that easy.
But my mother promised me a hug every day and never did it after saying that.  I need to give this to my inner child, especially as i never have hugs of other people.

I am so glad you have help.
I really want to try a massage therapist who uses pressure to realise emotions. Apparently acupuncture can do that but i think massage is what i need, and the one you see, sounds like they do two in one kind of.

Its amazing that you are trying so hard, and that you want to cover this from every possible direction. Being on the forum, is one.

well, sienna, i hope you are able to continue to move forward.  sometimes it's baby steps, sometimes a small leap here and there, sometimes even a step backward.  but, i think that the more we learn and understand, the cycles continue moving with more clarity and ease, and less backlash.  it's a process.
Thank you.  i have heard that recovery involves taking steps backwards so we can revisit things and learn. it doesnt mean you have failed even though it can feel like it.

keep being patient with yourself, be kind to yourself, and treat yourself well.  I have another question, I'm sorry, you might not know the answer.
Do you have any idea how to care for yourself and how to treat yourself well, when your in a flashback, such as the *know body cares about me* flashback?
During those times, i dont care for myself. I dont care for me either.
Maybe the anger i feel towards others, I'm turning it in on myself instead of expressing it, because if i cared about myself and others actions didnt show that they did, i would feel indignant, enraged, it would be too much to handle. It doesnt help that I'm living with others where i cant express anger.
Maybe I'm abandoning myself like my parents did in the past, that created this thing in me that says that know one cares.
Man. writing this out helps me to see things more clearly.

I cant believe that asking you questions was a level of validation. You are very welcome. You deserve validation.
  thank you for that, too.  and i hope any problems you've had with your therapist are getting ironed out, you're feeling more comfortable, and more able to trust your gut.  i think you're doing a really good job.
Thank you. I will see how it goes. Last session went really well.
I hope your ok. How are you doing after your T session?

[sanmagic7]

so glad to hear your last session went well.  maybe you both are settling in, getting to know each other a bit more, and the fit is becoming more comfortable.  i sure do hope so.  i'm feeling fine after my last session.  she's learning more about me, what kind of person i am, and helping with our couple issues.  those aren't real big, usually, but have gotten to the point where i wasn't going to put up with any kind of disrespect any more.  that, to me, is also a form of abuse. 

as to helping me with the trauma part, happily i've got my therapeutic experience behind me, and i love doing research, so i've looked up how it is recommended treatment for this goes, and am kind of guiding her, at the same time i look to her for guidance with what i'm doing.  she's sort of a therapeutic back-up for me, very supportive, has been very good at listening to me, and is becoming more interactive, which i like in therapy.  all in all, it's going well, and i feel good when the session ends.

dissociation, to my mind, means that your conscious mind is not able to deal with the reality of your situation, whether it be what's going on physically or psychologically.  when the reality is overwhelming, some people freeze, go numb, or some people dissociate, just go somewhere else in their mind.  anyway, that's how i've always looked at it.

and, when i was doing these pictures, 2 of my friends who are also in the therapeutic field were concerned for me because of the power and impact imminent in what i was doing.  because of my own experience therapeutically, both personally and professionally,  i was able to do the picture thing at a slow enough pace where i didn't get overwhelmed.  but, that's me.  for anyone else, i believe it is safest to work on something like that with their therapist.  i live in a small mexican town, and there was no therapist available at the time, and i wanted to keep moving forward, and this method came to mind so i decided to give it a shot.  i was in contact with both my friends and my very supportive husband through the entire process - they were my safeguards - and i was ready to stop at any point where i felt it was going to be too much.  i also took a lot of breaks from working on this so as not to get overwhelmed.

i still do take a lot of breaks.  since i'm coming at this from so many directions, it can get to be a bit much at times, and i just need time to regroup, relax, and recuperate from the psychological onslaught.   i thank my experience for having a pretty good grip on what i can deal with, and the signals that i need to stop and take a breather.

as far as taking care of yourself during those emotional flashbacks, all i can say is that it gets easier over time.  as they become less intense and happen less often, your natural instinct to do what's best for you will overshadow those 'i don't care about me or my self'  thoughts.  time, patience with yourself,  and the knowledge that this, too, shall pass, have all helped me to weather those flashbacks until i can get back on a more even keel.

and, it sounds like you found writing to be helpful to you in making connections and realizations!  yay!  that's what it does for me.  i encourage you to keep it up.  i do journaling on a regular basis - sometimes it's general stuff, sometimes it's more specific, but all of it is helpful for me to see things more clearly.  looks like you just learned one more way to help yourself take care of yourself, not only in a general way, but also during those ef's.  keep going!  you're learning, and i think that's always a positive thing, something helpful that we can build on in a self-caring, self-nurturing way.

and, yeah, giving myself hugs feels really good.  i've even taught my therapist to give me hugs after the sessions.  it was unheard of to her before.  we live and learn, don't we.  keep up the good work. 

[Sienna]

so glad to hear your last session went well.  maybe you both are settling in, getting to know each other a bit more, and the fit is becoming more comfortable.
Thank you! (She shared something about herself the other day. I wonder if she is doing what Pete Walker said he would do in the article. I was glad to find out someitng about her life, and it measured me that she *wasn't yawnnig* like i thought she was and it eased my worry) 

I am so glad that your therapist is learning about you and helping you with your couple's issues.
Yes, i completely agree, being disrespected is abuse.
I hope you are not being disrespected by your partner...(?)..only answer if you are comfortable.

Its great that you are helping her. I hope you feel supported still.
it's going well, and i feel good when the session ends. - Im so glad!

dissociation, to my mind, means that your conscious mind is not able to deal with the reality of your situation, whether it be what's going on physically or psychologically. 
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Yes, i thought that too.
Do you mean that if you are feeling physical pain in your body, the conscious mind might not be able to handle it?

I think you are right about dissociation. I am a freeze type.
Do you think that doing what you did as a freeze type (with the pictures and reminders of your narc / s), it would crack through the dissociation and make me feel stuff? That i wouldnt be able to handle?
or do you mean, if i am not numb about something and am say, angry or sad however, i would just end up disassociating?
I'm wondering if i just wouldn't progress. Or, if the feelings / trauma would get further stuffed down...if its possible to go any further under the surface...
I am glad that you had the support around you. You deserve that. I dont have that, so maybe doing it alone isn't a good idea.

as far as taking care of yourself during those emotional flashbacks, all i can say is that it gets easier over time.  as they become less intense and happen less often, your natural instinct to do what's best for you will overshadow those 'i don't care about me or my self'  thoughts.
Woah. ok. thanks.
T said that having others fill those needs to a degree that you didnt get met back then, is ok. This is new news to me.
I know you have to do a lot or most of it yourself.

I hope you keep writing up too.
What i find helpful also, is .. because theres know one to talk to, and i didnt talk to narc partner when we were together...but if i did talk a little...i would feel sad etc sometimes and i would feel an outlet. just saying something aloud is helpful to me..not sure why that can bring out emotion in me.
So now he's not here, and (i was never good at sharing * him anyway) i record myself on photo booth on my laptop and just speak about what is bothering me, or if I'm a flashback. I did it for the first time in an abandonment flashback last weekend. And i was able to cry.
Do you think I'm a weirdo now? Its just a way for me to sit with and release the feelings i feel i can sit with.

Is it ok that you asked your T to give you a hug after your sessions?
Ive heard lots of stuff about this, but i have heard, that - depending on the person and also depending on the therapists preferences of working..it can evoke flashbacks and feelings of needing your therapist. it could be a good thing, to bring up what you never had...to realise what you wish for.
I just had to say that, as i want you to know that those difficult feelings are a possibility.
It sounds really nice thought. I wouldn't mind a hug from mine. I know it would make it maybe more difficult to leave and would evoke more feelings of want and sadness.
Everyone is different. And if she did that, i would let her anyway despite having those feelings.

Thank you for all your support and encouragement. It means a lot. All of the same goes to you too. 

[sanmagic7]

hey, sienna,

somehow it seems that you are sounding a bit stronger within yourself.  are you feeling that?  i hope so.  the reason it seems this way to me is because you are finding things that work for you, and are also finding the courage to share that - speaking out loud to yourself.  i don't at all think you're crazy for doing that.  this stuff works differently for everyone.  i'd never thought of that, but it makes sense to me, a lot of sense.  keep up the good work!  and, in my opinion, if it feels good and helps you make forward progress (and, of course, isn't hurting you or another) then go for it! 

when i spoke of dissociation with physical stuff, i was thinking of rape victims as an example.  i've talked to several people, who, when the sexual abuse was going on, they could feel themselves 'leave' their bodies, view what was going on from above or another part of the room, or just go completely numb.  it may have hurt physically, but it also hurt psychologically.  it was just that the entire event was overwhelming, and the person was not able to deal with it, not able to cope with the reality. 

i think if you want to explore some alternate methods of releasing your emotions (when you're ready, of course), it would be a good idea to talk to your therapist about that.  see what she says, if she thinks it's a good idea, if she thinks you're ready for it, etc.  sometimes a therapist will encourage a client to do something like that during a session.  that way the client is monitored and supported at the same time.  sometimes the therapist won't think it's a good idea at the time, and would want the client to wait for a later time, when there's a stronger sense of self and emotional stability.   these emotions have been trapped for a long time - to attempt to let them out at random is seldom a good idea, especially on your own.

disrespect from my partner - this has been an ongoing 'thing' between us for years.  part of it is a male-dominated cultural thing, part of it is what he learned by watching how his dad treated his mom, and his mom's acceptance of it.  i've just gotten to the point in my recovery where i'm tired of anything of that kind.  happily, he's agreed to couples counseling, and i have faith that all that stuff will get ironed out.

asking my therapist for a hug - i'm a hugger, have been for a long time.  i hug most everyone when i feel a good vibe.  as a therapist, i liked closing my sessions with a hug, if my client agreed (i always asked first).  i felt like it put a very warm closure to the session.  in this case, where my therapist is not a hugger, i, as a client, asked her, and she, believing that it's something positive for me (or i wouldn't have asked) agreed.  she still doesn't offer, but when i feel like a hug would feel good to me, would feel like a good way to close a session, i ask, and she is now more at ease with it.

i don't think there's anything wrong with asking for a hug from your therapist.  and, depending on your reaction, if it brings up something negative, that would certainly be something to talk about in your next session.  you would be able to explore those feelings, get to the bottom of why something neg. happened after a hug.  again, it's what you feel comfortable with. 

personally, i don't remember a lot of 'safe' or gentle touch while i was growing up, and it's something that i want on a regular basis.  many of my friends are in recovery of one kind or another, so hugging is pretty automatic among us.  i've read about how 'good' touch helps our bodies give off pos. enzymes or neurotransmitters or something (i'm not sure exactly) and that it's important for our physical and mental well-being.  when i'd hug my daughters, i'd say 'skin health!', and we'd hug and smile/laugh.  it was a really good thing for all of us.  so, again, what you feel comfortable with is what is important. 

i just told my husband today that i believe i'm feeling better, in a general sense of the word.  i've had a busy week, and, in the past, it would've kicked my butt!  but, i'm hanging in, this week, and that feels good.  so, it seems like everything is working as it should, progress is being made.  yay!  i wish that for you as well.  it's a good, good, good feeling!

keep taking care of you, sienna.  i'm doing the same.  i'm convinced it's possible to eventually put this behind us. 

[Sienna]

Hey Sanmagic7

I dont know if I'm feeling stronger within. Maybe. Interesting that you point that out.
I think that you just get used to change...not used it it properly yet...but I'm used to the refuge.
There are challenges. So far, not any new ones. I hate them when they come , such as the social anxiety and not being able to leave my room.
The flashbacks and the down feelings after therapy for the rest of the week ive noticed come in cycles.
Sometimes i really dont feel strong. And i feel so alone.
I think it depends how things are going. I just have to believe that i will get myself through the bad times / flashbacks...and that i wont be crushed.
Been a good week, so maybe thats why I'm feeling stronger.
Thanks for pointing that out. You are very observant. 

I am glad that you dont think I'm crazy. That is just so validating and comforting, what you said.

Ah i see what you mean. I went numb a lot having sex with narc X. And if i need to release anger, i do go numb. In our arguments too, i would come out of my body the times that i couldn't handle i anymore and unintentionally ended up raging.

um that makes sense. Thanks for explaining about dissociation and trapped emotions. The emotions that are comming out are very hard to deal with, so that makes sense. If some are still trapped, there must be a reason. I do think its best to see what she thinks , when the time comes.

Im so sorry to hear that about your partner. Sounds like my narc X.
i've just gotten to the point in my recovery where i'm tired of anything of that kind.  h
I dont blame you. I feel the way too.
I really hope it can work out with you guys. I'm so glad he has agreed to go to counselling.

I do like the idea of a hug after sessions. It is interesting you saying it puts a warm sort of closure on the sessions. It can be cold...just leaving. Especially when you have been crying and ..oh...times up...bye.
and your left on your own, and its hard too when you have know one else in the world you can share your inner experience with.
It seems better..one time i had to sort out my face for crying so much, and she took her time in showing me where the bathroom was, putting the light on for me, looking at me directly and telling me to take care. All seems very caring to me form her.

Im glad your T and you see that hugging for you is a positive thing. Im glad that she took the time to consider how it might make you feel. Thats all i wanted- for you to be in safe hands and i hope you are.
I mean, therapy is largely or mostly about getting what we never did- if we are going by Pete Walkers relational style of therapy.

I dont think i could ever ask her for a hug, as she might say no, and she has never offered
The other session at the end, we had to leave the room we were in, so we sat in the waiting room so that i could pay her and she booked me in for next week in her diary.
Just sitting next to her felt close to me.  maybe my brain is wanting that and wanting her to want to be close to me, when maybe she doesnt feel like that at all. But it seemed to me that maybe she did not mind the closeness.
The take care, felt more...like she meant it.
And i was glad, but also sad and i know its because i wish i had a mother.

personally, i don't remember a lot of 'safe' or gentle touch while i was growing up, and it's something that i want on a regular basis.  many of my friends are in recovery of one kind or another, so hugging is pretty automatic among us.
Thats so sad. I relate to that. Its great that your friends and you can hug.

i never thought i needed hugs like most. But maybe X was super huggy and sex came after a lot of the time, so its like the hug wasnt always genuine.
I dont crave hugs. But when i think that i havent been hugged by anyone for a long time...it makes me sad.
ive heard that you can wilt and die (or is that only babies?) with out hugs.

when i'd hug my daughters, i'd say 'skin health!', and we'd hug and smile/laugh.
aww. thats so nice.

i just told my husband today that i believe i'm feeling better, in a general sense of the word.  i've had a busy week, and, in the past, it would've kicked my butt!  but, i'm hanging in, this week, and that feels good.  so, it seems like everything is working as it should, progress is being made.  yay!  i wish that for you as well.  it's a good, good, good feeling!
Im so glad to hear that. I hope you are able to rest when you need to.
I was just going to ask at the top how you are doing.
Thank you. I hope you continue to keep making progress. Proud of you. 
keep taking care of you, sienna.  i'm doing the same.  i'm convinced it's possible to eventually put this behind us.

[sanmagic7]

hey, sienna,

two thoughts while i was reading your post.  one about hugs, the other, about, well, hugs.  but from different angles.

what if you asked your therapist,  as a roundabout way of getting the information without putting yourself in jeopardy of being refused, what she thinks of hugs?  just when there's a break in the conversation or something, you could say something about that you've heard from others that hugs are valuable, and what does she think?  you'd get an answer from her, and it might open the door to you being able to ask if she thought the two of you having a hug at the end of the session would be a good idea, or something that she'd be comfortable with.   that way, you're not putting yourself directly in the path of a 'no'/rejection, even if she doesn't go for it, but it might lead to you being able to get one at the end of the session after all.  just a thought.

the other thought, and i don't know where you live, or what kinds of resources are around you, but are there any support groups in your area you could become a part of?  most places have 12-step meetings of one kind or another, and co-dependents anonymous (CoDA) might be a good fit.  i've been to a lot of these types of groups, from alcohol, to family, to CoDA, to overeating, and they all basically work the same way.  most of them i've encountered are very warm and welcoming, people there are at different levels of recovery, and they end in hugs.  it could be a place for you to not to feel so alone, while getting some real support from real people.  often there's someone who greets people at the door, and that person is kind, caring, and welcoming, glad to see you, sincere and genuine.  all my experiences have been positive, even tho going the first time is always scary - to everyone!  so, you're not alone in that, either.  again, just a thought.

thanks to you for your support, sienna.  you seem to be a very kind, caring person, and i like that.

i got a lovely massage last night, and it felt great!  it's the first time in years that i was able to tolerate a full-body massage.  my body has been so whacked out that even the leg massage that comes with a pedicure used to reduce me to tears from the pain.  it's getting healed, tho, a little at a time.  yay!!!

my husband and i went for a couples' session yesterday, and after a lot of b.s. and posturing on his part (macho man syndrome, i think) he finally turned it all around at the end of the session and said he's be willing to see her and work on his anger issues.  big relief for me.  that's the fount of the disrespect - he'll get angry or frustrated with someone, and he'll turn that anger onto me.  so, hopefully that's going to get fixed.  another yay!

in the meantime, i keep having my funerals (i think i told you about them) and grieving my losses.  today my funeral, what i wrote about, was for all the anger at my narc ex that, for my own sanity and peace of mind and well-being, i have to let go.  i know that anger, and i've had plenty of it, pounded my bed many, many times, wrote volumes about it, the pictures, etc., has been going on for years.  but i believe i'm stuck like a gerbil in one of those treadmill things, and keep running the same thing thru my mind over and over, not getting anywhere, and really not doing myself any good any more.  so, i've got to get off that treadmill, or i won't be able to continue moving forward.  that's how i see it, at least.  i know you've been concerned about me stuffing my anger, but this feels more like mourning the death of it.  it's just not useful anymore, so i'm saying good-bye to it.  i've got other things to do with my life now, especially since i'm feeling better, and just ruminating on this crap doesn't allow me to do something productive. 

with that, i'll take my leave.  keep on keepin' on, sienna.  i think you're doing good.  again, for some reason, just the tone you're writing in is sounding stronger to me than a week ago. 

[Sienna]

Sanmagic7, hi!
Im so sorry its taken me a while to get back to you.
I havent had time...though i wanted to, as every time i had internet i had to use it for other stuff and its hard to type out a long message on my phone.

How are you doing?

Thank you so much for your suggestion.
what if you asked your therapist,  as a roundabout way of getting the information without putting yourself in jeopardy of being refused, what she thinks of hugs?
That is a great idea. I think I'm just worried it would open up old wounds- wanting what i cant have.
I think that she might read into what i really mean and she would be accurate in her interoperation if i round about asked her too. But maybe one day i will be able to do it.
Why did i never think of asking this way?

And thank you for suggesting about support groups. That might be helpful. Im glad they helped you.
aw. thanks. You are very welcome to my support.

i got a lovely massage last night, and it felt great!  it's the first time in years that i was able to tolerate a full-body massage.  my body has been so whacked out that even the leg massage that comes with a pedicure used to reduce me to tears from the pain.  it's getting healed, tho, a little at a time.  yay!!!
Thats so great, I'm really glad to hear that. Do you think that the toxins or the ..smoatic symptoms in your body are being released through the message?

Trigger Warning ...


I was really worried that that would happen, going to counselling with your husband. I dont know if he is a narc or had narc traits, but they can twist things around and even fool the therapist.
Sorry if thats a bit blunt.
Im so sorry to hear that he turns his anger onto you. That must not feel very good at all. 
Hugs to you. 

I like how you call them funerals. I call mine episodes.
Its so amazing that you are doing this work, that you are going through it. I know how hard it is.
Omg. Exactly how i feel. Same reminders over and over again.a
and it was like that with narc x when i was with him...only i realise now that it was also him.
Now the flashbacks are comming from external experience.
I do believe and T does too, that we need to purge this stuff out of ourselves, no matter how long it takes or how much it comes round over and over again. It does suck though and I'm sure you relate to wanting it all to just be over?
.  but i believe i'm stuck like a gerbil in one of those treadmill things, and keep running the same thing thru my mind over and over, not getting anywhere, and really not doing myself any good any more.

With your anger/ rage...i have heard that other feelings can appear, but the anger can still seep out from time to time. I think that it just needs to be expressed.
Yes, i understand that you might need to mourn the death of anger. Anger is more powerful, righteous anger that should be felt, that you are entitled to feel.
Its like self protection in a way, although scary and apparently, it comes first most of the time, because it is the easier emotion for people to feel.
I underhand you saying that its just not useful.

Yes, i hope you are ok keeping on keeping on. Im sure you have much courage- which is very much needed i think. 

[sanmagic7]

hi, sienna,

no need to apologize, never need to apologize.  we all have other things in our lives that need tending to.  and, if you don't show up at all, it could be for any number of reasons, and that wouldn't be a concern for me, either.  sh*t happens, as they say.  i would not take that personally.  it might be that it's just time for you to move on.  even if it's abruptly.

the reason you didn't think of a particular thing is because we can't think of everything!  none of us!  even tho i'm a therapist, i'm going to a therapist because i can't think of everything i need, i can't always help myself.  i've been able to think of a lot of things that help me, like my funerals, that my therapist may never have thought of, but she was the one who suggested that when i finish with my funerals, i tear them up and throw them away.  and, when she first said that, i burst into tears (which tells me that she really struck a nerve, and it was something that i needed to do).  it just seemed so final to me, and i wasn't quite ready to look at that.   4 weeks later, the idea of tearing up what i'd written about everyone and everything i've lost or needed to say good-bye to seems like a relief, like it'll finally be over, out of my life, and i can move on from it all.  i'm waiting until i have all my funerals finished before i do the tearing and tossing,  i want to do it in my therapist's office, and it'll feel like one giant purge.  it sounds good to me just writing about it!

i absolutely know that so much poison has been released already from my body through massage and the pressure points.  absolutely!  i've been working on the physical side of all this for at least 15 years, and, while any kind of healing touch has been helpful, and has moved me forward, it wasn't until this year that i was ready for the pressure point releases.  gallons of tears, so much stored emotion released - i could tell when it was sadness, when it was anger, i could feel the emotions themselves - so much physical pain went with it, too.  but, the stress and tension had been sitting within my muscles for around 30 years, just stored there, and it took a lot of strength for her to push on those points to release what had been stored within.  it was awful, very difficult, on one level, and i could only take about 15 min. of that kind of pain at a time.  but, i kept at it, put myself thru it because i somehow knew that the only way out was through.  and i'm now, finally, seeing incredible results.  but, this, too, has been a process, difficult and painful at times, but necessary.  and i'm really glad i've been doing it.  i haven't felt this healthy and strong physically in years.

as far as my anger goes, most of the time it's been the emotion beneath others.  it's been the hidden emotion for me, and was usually covered up by sadness.  being sad was very easy for me to feel, but being angry was not.  now i'm finally getting in touch with my anger, and my sadness is leaving me.  i'd cry at every sweet, kind, loving thing i'd see or hear about.  with my funerals, and my inner child work, i'm sorting thru that sadness, releasing the anger that's been trapped forever, and i'm not so weepy all the time.  and that feels great!

i'm quite sure my hubby is not a narc, just that he's learned over the years to misplace or displace his anger/frustration onto something/someone (like me, or his ex, when they were together because we were convenient and safer).  his dad did the same thing with his mom, so i don't doubt he learned to do it from that.  and my therapist  is being very careful to check in with me about any little incidents that might be happening with him.  so, she's staying on top of it, which i'm glad about.

so, my life is going really well.  i'm feeling a positive momentum, a shift of some sort in the past week, that was noticeable in a positive way for me.  dang, at last!

and, sienna, when you are ready, you'll make the moves you need to make.  sometimes we need to push ourselves, sometimes we need to let our selves push us.  but, it's your call to make.  i hope you're feeling like you're making progress, too.  that's our goal, isn't it?  to make progress through this jungle?  keep on keepin' on.  and, hang tough.  you'll find exactly the right amount of courage that you need at the time you need it.

[Sienna]

Sanmagic7 I thought I replied to your post but it's not here. Don't know why. I hope you are ok