Freeze-Fawn Type

[LanaBanana]

Hey all! 

So I've just discovered that I am a freeze-fawn combination and I was wondering if anyone else shares this as well? I've read Walker's descriptions for both the Fawn and the Freeze type, but I'm interested in the interaction between the two. Is there any information specifically on the freeze-fawn type? Also, if anyone relates to this type and would like to share their story, that would be great!

Thanks! 

[Three Roses]

hi - not sure if fawn-freeze would be the same as freeze-fawn. but, there is a definition from  pete walker starting on p 134 of his book "complex ptsd: from surviving to thriving". i will type it out for you either on the forum or in pm if you prefer. (it's the type i also identify the most with)

[LanaBanana]

Thank you Three Roses, that would be very much appreciated! 

[Three Roses]

ok here goes!

Fawn-Freeze: The Scapegoat

The fawn-freeze is typically the most codependently entrenched subtype. Not all scapegoats are fawn-freeze, but since fawn and freeze types are both prone to extreme self-denial, many end up in a scapegoat position.

This is also because these are the two most passive of the four F's. They have both typically suffered the most punishment or rejection for asserting themselves in the toddler stage.

When the fawn freeze is not able to escape the scapegoat role in childhood, she is then set up to be similarly victimized in adulthood.

In worst case scenarios fawn-freezes are easily recognized by fight types who take them captive. They may then turn them into doormats and subject them to domestic violence (DV). Sometimes, the fawn-freeze does not even recognize that she is being abused. Other times she blames herself (as she had to in childhood).

Moreover, as we know from studying the dv cycle, many narcissistic abusers know when and how to shower romantic tidbits on their victims just when they are at the point of leaving. These narcissists are often the charming bullies described in the last chapter. Their infrequent tidbits have more warmth in them than anything the codependent received at home, so she quickly becomes rehooked, and just as quickly the cycle of abuse begins again.

It is important to note that many charming bullies also offer copious tidbits briefly in the courtship stage but these peter out to near starvation rations once the entrapment is complete.

Many fawn-freeze types only make token efforts at recovery, if they do not avoid it altogether. Often fawn-freezes were forced to so thoroughly abandon their protective instincts that they become trapped in what psychologists call "learned helplessness".

(Omitted two paragraphs here concerning info specific to males.)

I have worked a great deal with ... fawn-freeze types in my years of doing telephone crisis counseling. Hope for them lies in understanding how their childhood abuse set them up for their current abuse. This is often difficult, because scapegoated fawn-freezes were often punished extra intensely for complaining.

Numerous times I have heard dv victims say: "But I don't want to act like a victim!" Usually, I then try to help them see how much they truly were victims in childhood. However, if I cannot get them to see this they usually are not able to rescue themselves from their current victimization.

[Dutch Uncle]

Given that description I guess I'm a freeze-fawn type too. I definitely have "learned helplessness". I mostly identify with the freeze-type, though perhaps I'm more fawn than I'm aware of.

Thanks for the write up, Three Roses.  Very insightful.

[LanaBanana]

Thank you so much for posting this Three Roses! It really resonated with me, particularly the part about not being able to recognize domestic violence when it happens. Besides identifying how victimized we were in during our childhood, is there anything else (either that Walker suggests or that you've found helpful) that can be done for fawn-freeze types?

This seems like a really tough thing to overcome, so I'm sending you (and Dutch Uncle) and everyone who is struggling with this a hug!   

[Three Roses]

haha... it's ironic but I've actually been running from therapy/recovery for a couple of years now. But recently I've really been pulled toward ... I don't know, SOMETHING... anything to start the healing process. I was just diagnosed with PTSD about two years ago (I'm 59) and subsequently did some reading that "helped" me remember the rest of my childhood, so I've been dealing with that.

That said... since we are resistant, I think it's good that we recognize that about ourselves. It seems to me that if we are resistant, and finally talk ourselves into doing something, and if we get scared off.... I can see where I, at least, would use that for justification to not return. Maybe (knowing me) I'd even be looking for that! So, start off with accepting we're resistant and don't try to force ourselves to do something too early just because we "should". Wait until we're really ready.

Also - in Walker's book, he talks about finding a "good-enough" person to engage in something he calls "co-counseling", where you and a friend trade 30- to 60-minute sessions and talk/listen. There are guidelines in his book for this. My friend, whom I trust completely and without reservation, have discussed doing this for/with each other as we each know and accept the other unconditionally.

[LanaBanana]

The co-counseling concept is interesting, I had never thought of that. I'd be curious to know more about that. I'm glad that you have a friend you trust enough to do that with, that seems scary (at least to me), so congratulations on trying that, it takes courage to do that  

I have had a hard time getting myself to therapy and committing to it as well, I'm rather scared of opening a can of worms that I might not be able to close (if that makes sense). I've found a therapist I actually trust and I'm so grateful for that, but it seems, given the description of the fawn-freeze type, that there's a lot that needs to be done in order to heal. I'm feeling pretty anxious about that right now 

[Silverlight]

Looking into it it looks like I'm a freeze-fawn type too. Interestingly i was in a long term relationship with dv and didn't realise I was being abused for almost 10 years. The co-counselling sounds interesting.

LanaBanana, it took me a couple of years with my current psychologist to feel ready to open up about my childhood abuse. I just knew I want ready before then to work through it. Try not to beat yourself up about it, in my personal experience it takes time to feel ready to open that can if worms and I'm sure you'll get there. Sending you hugs

[LanaBanana]

Thank you Silverlight! Sending you hugs too, that 10 year relationship sounds awful, I'm so sorry to hear that   

I've been really hyper-vigilant about people lately, I'm really really scared of ending up in another abusive relationship like the one I had. I also tend to blame myself for not recognizing some of the red flags early on, as well as the abuse that occurred during my last relationship. So I think that's why I'm a bit worried about therapy and recognizing my fawn-freeze tendencies. I may be beating myself up about this though. 

[Dutch Uncle]

Numerous times I have heard dv victims say: "But I don't want to act like a victim!" Usually, I then try to help them see how much they truly were victims in childhood. However, if I cannot get them to see this they usually are not able to rescue themselves from their current victimization.

It took a while to let this sink in, but I have to agree that this has been an important step in my recovery: accepting I have been a victim. I'm still in the process of doing so, it's not something like turning a switch on/off.
I bookmarked this in my own copy of Pete Walkers book. Thanks for reminding me, Three Roses and Pete Walker, that being a victim is nothing to be ashamed about, it's not been my doing.

[arpy1]

i am definitely a freeze-fawn, with a side of flight and a garnish of fight!

one thing i think i have realised,LanaB, is - the can of worms thing? well i know that fear, am facing it right now in fact. but i reckon that to take the lid right off would be too traumatic  so maybe, drill a couple of holes in the side and let a bit seep out at a time? that way i can still manage to function a little bit at the same time.  to that end i am currently (slowly) re-reading Pete Walker, a tiny bit at a time, and stopping when i get too triggered. no idea where it will lead me but at least i am making some kind of effort to help myself.

i also like the idea of a co-counselling relationship. i think it would be lovely to have such an agreement with someone, with sensible boundaries of course.
sending you a hug 

[LanaBanana]

Thank you Dutch Uncle and arpy1!!       
It makes me feel better knowing that I'm not the only one with this.
Does anyone find it hard to relate to other people? I seem to feel that people are dangerous and I should avoid them, but when someone shows me a tiny bit of kindness, I forfeit all my boundaries. Does anyone relate? 

[Dutch Uncle]

when someone shows me a tiny bit of kindness, I forfeit all my boundaries. Does anyone relate?

Yes. But always reluctantly.
For the result it doesn't really matter if I do it reluctantly or not, I guess. But I realize I never did it wholeheartedly. I'm not sure if this is typical for "Fawning". Perhaps it is. Would it be a different thing if I would do it wholeheartedly instead of reluctantly? I don't know. Thoughts, anybody?
Is the reluctance a sense of 'buried' fight-response?

[arpy1]

omg, yes, LanaB!!!

and nowadays i hate myself when i do that. i used to think it was the right way to respond. i didn't know that boundaries were even ok, let alone vital. i thought they were sinful. so i have been well trained to have none at all.

now my boundary is basically the size and shape of my skin... no where for anyone to get in to the real me (whoever she is), unless it's a bit online, where i can remain anonymous, or  with the one relatively safe friend i have left from my past, or in the one safe space that i feel i have, the GP's surgery room.   i would rather be alone than risk getting conned and betrayed again.

so, I seem to feel that people are dangerous and I should avoid them, but when someone shows me a tiny bit of kindness, I forfeit all my boundaries. Does anyone relate? yup yup yup.

the reluctance, D/U i am wondering about.  i don't find it easy to relate to that becos of never having done it reluctantly. maybe it is a kind of flight/fight shield that you have adopted to prevent anyone having the chance to hurt you again? kind of like how i self isolate and avoid humans in general? interesting.