Freeze-Fawn Type

[LanaBanana]

i would rather be alone than risk getting conned and betrayed again.

Arpy1, I totally get what you mean, I have the same feeling too. I'd rather keep myself safe and be alone than risk getting hurt again.
Dutch Uncle, I think I get what you mean, whenever I meet someone at first, even if I forfeit my boundaries, I still pull away at times and am considered to be rather distant. Like Arpy1 said, I think it's a kind of defense as not to get hurt.

I think ultimately, I view relationships with other people as an automatic forfeit of my boundaries and identity, and I have never been able to see this pattern. I may have a reluctance after I have forfeited my identity and pull away as not to get hurt, but I still seem to enter that pattern regardless. I've been blaming relationships, thinking that they were unsafe and unreliable (and my early relationship with my FOO was without a doubt), but I haven't seen how I contribute to making relationships unsafe for me. I have a choice now to either continue avoiding relationships, saying that people are unsafe and can't be trusted, or I can learn how to establish boundaries early on and how to maintain my identity with other people as to be able to have healthy relationships. The problem is, I don't know how to establish boundaries or how to start being myself with other people. Any thoughts and suggestions? 

[Three Roses]

Yes, I also like the idea of being safe and alone much better than being around people, who also seem dangerous/unpredictable to me. However, it seems it is just the idea i like, as staying isolated doesn't feel good either.

so how do you establish boundaries? first of all, it seems you must convince yourself that you are worthy of boundaries. think of it this way: every house has an area around it that is considered that house's property. while it may be ok that little children or dogs & cats wander in and out of your yard, you would think differently if the neighbor's all decided to use your yard as a waste receptacle or party area. Coming outside to find your neighbor in his pajamas in your lawn chair, reading your newspaper, you would recognize immediately that boundaries had been crossed! so we must see ourselves in this same light; we have a bubble of personal space, we have limits for tolerating others' behaviors.

a useful exercise an old counselor had me do was to write down my family's unwritten laws, and examine them objectively. each family has a set of (usually) unspoken/unwritten laws & rules; they are seldom stated plainly but they are expressed and expected. For example, two of my FOO's rules were  "don't draw public attention to yourself" and "never talk openly about your feelings". however many rules your family had, list all of them that you can think of, on one side of the paper. then, challenge each rule from an objective point of view - and write a new rule for yourself. so while on one side of the paper you may have "don't draw attention to yourself", on the other side of the paper you may have something like, "cut loose and have fun!"  and "don't talk about feelings" could become something like, "i will talk about my feelings when and if i need to" or  "my friends and i share our feelings openly & honestly".

after i did this exercise i was amazed at the blatantly dysfunctional set of rules i had internalized! it took some time with me reading and re-reading MY new set of rules for myself, daily or sometimes several times a day, to be able to replace them. (i also found i had to re-write some of my new rules to reflect my new, healthier outlook.)

right - so step 1 is "I'm worthy of boundaries" and step 2 is "here are my rules". now how do we apply them? it's not necessary to challenge people each time they violate a rule - in fact it could have just the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve. but  if someone is disturbing you, overstepping their authority in your life, intruding into your personal space (unwanted touch, etc) it is absolutely vital for your own mental health that you take whatever steps necessary to clearly establish the boundary that has been violated. there's an example of this in mr walker's book, where a woman who'd been repeatedly physically abused learn to stick up for herself at work. when a co-worker started touching her, she said nothing - but when the co-worker started letting the touches linger too long, out loud and in front of other co-workers she plainly stated, "i don't like it when you touch me. i don't want you to touch me anymore." the co-worker stopped his intrusive and unwelcome advances.

healthy people (yes, they really do exist) not only have their own boundaries, they expect you to have them too. they will appreciate knowing the limits of the relationship!
sorry this was so long. it was really helpful for me emotionally to say all this! thanks for listening.

[LanaBanana]

Three Roses, don't apologize for the length, this really helped, this was exactly what I needed, thank you! 

I've started doing step 1, and it's a constant upkeep, but I had never heard of step 2. That's really great, I never thought of writing the unspoken rules of my FOO down before, but it makes a lot of sense! Like your family, my FOO had the same "Don't draw attention to yourself" and "Never talk openly about your feelings" rules, it's interesting to see them written down. I will probably take up this exercise as well, it seems like a great way of addressing my problems, thank you for this!   

[Three Roses]

you are so welcome! it helps me, too, to be able to talk to you and the forum about this stuff. i'd be so interested to hear what you discover for yourself!

[chairmanmeow]

Hmmm I wonder at learned helplessness.
I wonder at what constitutes fawning, I have much doubt in my own self narrative on this. I want for those omitted paragraphs about males.
When people are kind, when people ask, weither its out of empathy or the fact that I can I just give without much thought or reservation. Simply because I can, which is a fine line because when you do kindness people are compelled to do kindness in turn and thats a slippery slope that leads to an uncomfortable amount of attention and prying at my vulnerability that my freezing can not allow. So I do things because I can, because I am so abandoned, like a cat content to have you in the same room but wont tolerate your affection I follow and keep a distance in some push pull. Is that a fawn trait, I never feel like what I do has any return or at least expect, or are these lies I tell myself... I dont know.. iv moved past being blindsided by the physical aspect of my anxiety disorder and have really started to pick at the core of my emotional lackings...

[LanaBanana]

Three Roses, do you think it would be beneficial for me to write down the unspoken rules in my abusive relationship as well? For example, in my FOO one of the rules was: "Don't draw attention to yourself". However, with my ex, one of his rules was: "Draw attention to yourself by wearing revealing clothing". I adopted my ex's rules during the relationship even though they made me feel uncomfortable and went against some of my FOO's rules (that were also restrictive in their own way). What I'm left with now are two sets of different rules. Maybe it would be good for me to write both my FOO's rules and my relationship's rules down too (if that makes sense), what do you think?

By the way, it helps so much knowing that someone has gone through some of the same things, sharing tips on working through this is so great, thank you! 

Chairmanmeow (love the name by the way), I totally get what you're saying about being like a cat and being happy that someone is actually with me, but not being able to tolerate their affection. That could be because we're not used to having people express their affection towards us in a healthy way, and we view this as an automatic forfeit of our boundaries and identities? I think that's my take on relationships with other people that I tried to express in my previous posts, if that makes sense. I'd be curious to know about the passage omitted about men as well.

[chairmanmeow]

Im very much a freeze type in the way I handle boundaries, the more I pay attention those who have even a twisted source of affection will compromise to an extreme to get that cookie in that jar.
For me I was emotionally abandoned completely or enough that I severed myself from everyone. I have zero hopes and expectations, my boundaries are well formed trenches, land mines, barbwire fences and such.
With good reasons because instability in my attachments sends my world into chaos, my anxiety disorder to the point of intense physical suffering, and flood gates of the worst feelings.
But the whole freeze-fawn type resonates with me still... out side of boundaries, I ruthlessly self abandon not for gain but out of a sense of being totally lost, The effects of dissociation are strong in me, when I do have attachment I dont carry them lightly, I over invest, I cling to a necessity scarce in my world, and sometimes unwitting dissapear in the process I loose my sense of self I drift I fall apart I shut down again when this attachment causes me strife, I revert. I become blank and helpless. When I break it down it feels like two extremisms dictated by interpersonal distance to freeze and fawn those who are past those barriers.. or is this just the nature of freezing?

[LanaBanana]

Chairmanmeow, what you are describing sounds a lot like how I feel too, about having no expectations of a connection with people, or viewing them as dangerous, but also self-abandoning, or forfeiting my boundaries and identity, when someone shows me kindness. From what I understand, this seems to fit the fawn-freeze hybrid type, as we often dissociate from people or hurtful situations, but we also fawn and merge ourselves to other people too. Currently, I'm trying to find ways to work through this problem as to be able to have a healthier relationship with people instead of either dissociating or fawning (or using a combination of both).

I hope this helps! 

[chairmanmeow]

Yeah thank you, It clears up much for me...
Its one of those things you feel but cant exactly put your finger on sometimes.
I think about my last relationship, she never thought beyond herself only thought of me when it had a bearing on herself.
Its only after the fact in these late hours I start to see the abuse in it. And that is still a bit of a struggle to actualize my heart is a door that is either completely open or shut. And that seems to be the hallmark of this hybrid type.

Which has me thinking, you ever here of helpers high, the reward you feel when you help and care for another. When you live in such a impoverished state even those tidbits are a significant something within a safe reach. I wonder if we dont find ourself inherently chasing that in some way...

[LanaBanana]

That's interesting, I've never actually heard of helper's high. I don't know if you're referencing the actual need to help people, regardless of whether people want it or not, or if you're referring to tending to other people's needs and helping them with their problems because it's easier tending to other people's needs than to your own. In this case (the last example, and like my own situation), it would be a fawning response, as you would take care of other people's problems at the profit of your own needs. It seems that was the case with your last relationship. Where she took advantage of your help (and that's clearly abusive on her part), you also forfeited your boundaries and weren't maybe able to communicate your needs either. I hope I am making myself clear, and I am really not trying to blame you for her behavior. I think though that some of our fawn-freeze tendencies have the potential of attracting people who abuse our willingness to help.

Did that clarify anything? 

[chairmanmeow]

Those 2 paragraphs:
Finally, there is growing evidence that a significant number of men also silently suffer domestic violence. A male client once told me that no matter how much his wife assaulted him, he couldn't stop himself from saying "I'm sorry" to her. This only made her madder, but not as mad as when he flashbacked into saying: "I'm sorry for saying 'I'm sorry' ", even though his wife would slap him in the face every time he did. Not surprisingly, further investigation revealed a borderline mother who still slaps him in the face when she is displeased with him. As a child he was required to keep his hands down whenever she slapped him. He then had to apologize for making her "have to" punish him. Unfortunately, he left therapy after only a few sessions because his wife looked in his checkbook, and then hit him repeatedly for "wasting his time and her money."

Walker, Pete. Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving: A GUIDE AND MAP FOR RECOVERING FROM CHILDHOOD TRAUMA (p. 135). Azure Coyote Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Helper's High is the name for the positive emotional state some people experience after providing help to others. Studies have shown that helping others can produce feelings of happiness and can activate reward centers of the brain just like food or drugs. Research also suggests that being kind and generous benefits both physical and mental health. So if you feel great after doing volunteer work or donating to charity, you can say you're "high" on helping.

Read more: http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.php?term=Helper%27s%20High#ixzz4B1kOtV4l

I just caved in and got the ebook version... that girl and her whole family were messed up, when I looked back and was still blaming myself I found the way I was handling my stuff healthy and all the stuff they say dont do described everything she did. Everyone in her house was a bit of a narcissistic cutthroat sociopath, and they did not like me one bit. lol Its hard for me to find any balance when it comes to relationships Im allways ready to cut my losses keep everyone at a distance,
I will never make the mistake of loving someone with no emotional intellect again.
Establishing boundaries, open discussion, made her so caustic.. she would lash out, take things out of context hold them and bring them up month latter. At the end my nerves were so done I suffered a lot physically and she took it worst then I did, all i wanted was for to be their that was enough, she couldent "fix" me.. but even being supportive was imposable for her. When she realized she could no longer put everything on me is when she decided to abandon me. Thats the type of person she was, but having someone to care about, provided a distraction, gave me focus some reason to still be living.

[LanaBanana]

Chairmanmeow, I totally get what you're saying, I can see parallels with your last relationship and mine. Although I don't think I experience helper's high, I think I get the concept. From what you're describing, I think you did everything you could in that relationship, as I did in mine. The fault lies with the people who abused us, not with us. But I think our fawn-freeze tendencies make it easier for us to stay in these kinds of abusive relationships without realizing we are being taken advantage of. Like you said, having someone to take care of, or just having someone there with us does really make us happy and satisfies a need we have. However, we seem to forfeit all our other needs in order to be with this person, and even when this person hurts us, we don't recognize it or expect them to take care of us and respect our needs. I think that addressing these tendencies can allow us to find healthier relationships with people who respect our needs, and in my case, it's pretty hard because I feel like people are dangerous and can't be trusted, and I tend to stay away from people all together. Until someone shows me a tiny bit of kindness, and that's when I'll forfeit my own needs and boundaries, and in the process, I open myself up to any kind of abuse. This is my case, and I'm not sure if that's how you feel, but from what I understand it fits in the fawn-freeze tendency.

The part about the client who couldn't stop apologizing really struck a chord with me, I have that problem too. I tend to apologize for situations that are clearly not my fault, and I've apologized countless times when other people hurt me, either physically or emotionally. I still have a problem apologizing and it's really hard to break free from that. For example, if I execute a move perfectly on someone in my MMA class, I will immediately apologize to them thinking that I've hurt them, even when they reassure me that I did everything correctly. I don't know if anyone else who has fawn-freeze tendencies can relate to that, but that really hit the nail on the head for me.

[chairmanmeow]

Yeah its ironic isnt it?
The inherit mistrust that must be overcome is go great, that the trust you give that person you let in makes an idiot of you when that person takes you for granted or advantage.
And I say to myself I love you, so I would never have such and such an attitude, thus is trust, and maybe the denial because if they have such an attitude then they are not worthy of my trust and banished back to the other end of the spectrum.

I really love this right now.. just breaking it down and being able to relate is kinda forcing what I over look and take for granted in myself in a kinda awesome and horrible perspective. Much appreciation..

[Silverlight]

I haven't read all the recent responses (have a small child being a bit clingy today, i think she's teething) but i just wanted to say a huge thanks to Three Roses for your response regarding boundaries. I can see how writing down my FOO rules and challenging them will be really beneficial as I know one of the biggest ones was "keep quiet in order to keep safe" and so that has lead to me allowing people to walk all over me.

I also wanted to say LanaBanana that i 100% relate to not letting people in and them doing it to readily once kindness is shown. For me specifically in romantic relationships. And like others I then freak out and pull away. As for friends I just isolate myself.

[LanaBanana]

It's unfortunately sad that we end up in these situations because of how dysfunctional and abusive our FOO was. That's why we have to recognize our own dysfunctional tendencies and address them so that we can break that pattern. In my case, it feels uncomfortable and stressful when I am with people who treat me right, because being treated badly and being abused is what I know and has become "comfortable" for me. It seems harder for me to recognize when I am being abused because it is what I expect in a way.

It's a sad situation and takes a lot of work to overcome, I hope that you're able to sort of piece your situation together in order to break free from that and learn to have healthier relationships. You deserve so much better than the abuse you've been through Chairmanmeow 

Also thank you Silverlight for your input, it helps knowing that I'm not alone in this