Freeze-Fawn Type

[Sienna]

Three Roses,
That is what i found too. Thank you for having a look.
Can you not be a freeze type first? Then have a second trauma hybrid??
Pete Walker said that not many are Freeze with Freeze hybrid.
He said not many are pure freeze types.

Sorry if you dont know- its ok if not...just wondering...
If you are a flight type with Freeze second...it doesnt make sense..because when relating to others- i just freeze like in therapy.
And in my other relationship with X i was very avoidant and would isolate.  But its not just simply because he was a narc. I was very closed off to begin with, though he did not help.
I am like this with others though. Avoidant. Avoidant of social situations. Avoidant of being honest and authentic.

Basically, does anyone know if Freeze always comes second? if its a second trauma hybrid?

[Sienna]

Thanks a lot chairman meow.

I related a lot to this when i read it in Pete Walkers book. (cant re-download - problem with space on phone and dont know how to fix it at the moment)

I think i may be this type, the counter-dependant has been described as being a work aholic. the only bit i dont relate to is working a lot.
During a crisis i run away- flighty.
and after an argument i run- then freeze right away.

Think my dad is a flight type. He is very avoidant and so was my mother.
my mother- counter-dependant. Narc- so also co-dependant on others. well being counter-depdnant means needing others there who you can be counter dependant off.
Dad- co-dependant possibly- abusive relationships.
man I'm confused. maybe i dont have a definite type but am all of them.
but ive heard people are more one than the other.

Thanks a lot. I think ill take this to T and ask her what she thinks.
A way you behave so often, and i cant *see* what i do. Maybe thats part of the denial of the freeze type.
Thanks so much.

[Sienna]

Ok, just reading the website- pete walker.
says:
The entitled fight type commonly uses others as an audience for his incessant monologizing, and may treat a "captured" freeze or fawn type as a slave or prisoner in a dominance-submission relationship.
So being a freeze and with a narc in an abusive relationship - that happened to me.
I used to be afraid of not doing what he wanted- for the re-procussions. Definitely learned from my parents.
But he was mad at me because i was so avoidant and closed off. -Because i wouldnt talk about anything intimate or personal, rare that i did, and it had to be more about other people- and not about how i *felt*.
We were both avoidant. Him more- co-dependant i thought at the time, before i knew he was a narc. But he is co-dependant. All narcs are.
he tried to get me to talk and invaded my boundaries. He tried to fix me.
I tried to fix him but didnt know i was doing that for a long time.

I might have reminded him of his parents perhaps - being closed off. With holding love. I just couldnt give him love as he hurt me and betrayed my trust over and over but i couldnt leave him for not trusting my own feelings, thinking it was all in my head despite my feelings of rage, and i used to act like my mother. So angry.
Until i learned that i had to hold it in like i had to in the past with my parents. I started smoking.

So yes, i always thought, sure I'm co-dpednant but more counter.
now it makes sense, but I'm still not sure.
sorry. ugh.

[chairmanmeow]

Freezing only is effective as a last resort with no other options, I believe what you say has a ring of truth in this particular nature, the way we deal with people and situations when they have a far interpersonal distance is very different then our reactions dealing with those he need or have a very close interpersonal attachment to.
I am a heavy freeze type but when attachments are close I fawn. So rather then being a rather submissive Fawn- Freeze
I keep ruthless boundaries and break down into codependency when my trust is earned...
Pete kept his hybrid list to what he was an expert in but I think if you break own your traits and organize your tendencies to a close and far interpersonal distance and take a good look at your coping method with your FOO you will sort out your particular nuances... Between all of us we could prob make a complete hybrid list I bet

[chairmanmeow]

Actually the more I think the more sense you make lol
you can run from situations that are far enough to throw away, Flight
You cant run from situations that are close and your invested in, it sounds like you flight realize you cant go and thus you freeze.
Thats kinda how it seems to me..

[Sienna]

Freezing only is effective as a last resort with no other options,
Right- now i get it! Thanks!
Ok, now this is all fitting into place in nice neat little ordered boxes in my mind - it now makes sense!
If you are eg. a flight - freeze-
as an adult, you might jump straight to freeze- and could be a heavy freeze type (thus making you think that you are freeze first- because you are mostly freeze)
The reason you are mostly freeze, is because the other defences you used, did not work, were not allowed, etc. so you started freezing.
So now, sometimes the first defence you developed works for you-
but you mostly jump to the one that ALWAYS worked.
man this makes sense.
Thank you billions.

the way we deal with people and situations when they have a far interpersonal distance is very different then our reactions dealing with those he need or have a very close interpersonal attachment to.
Yes, i like the way you phrased this.

I am a heavy freeze type but when attachments are close I fawn. So rather then being a rather submissive Fawn- Freeze
I keep ruthless boundaries and break down into codependency when my trust is earned...
I think i do this too. I'm always scared so i dont know if being scared and untrustworthy whilst being desperate for connection makes a difference.
Sometimes I'm numb and on auto pilot doing it just trying to survive. and I'm terrified to be alone.
i do tend to rush deep into relationships then pull back and am avoidant again.
if you are familiar with astrolgoy- i launch head first into love like an aries in love when it comes ...and like to delve deep and not waste time like a Scorpio.

Yes , i agree, and thank you for the suggestion. I need to gather up all the traits and look at them.
t I think if you break own your traits and organize your tendencies to a close and far interpersonal distance and take a good look at your coping method with your FOO you will sort out your particular nuances... Between all of us we could prob make a complete hybrid list I bet

[Sienna]

haha, im glad I'm making sense!

You cant run from situations that are close and your invested in, it sounds like you flight realize you cant go and thus you freeze.
Yes, i think so too. Apparently using alcohol etc and nicotine to numb out is flighty, not dissociative. But i thought it was because alcohol numbs you like dissociation.
if you jump straight to these and dont leave, then i see that as freezing, even if you can run away (Flight), sometimes, i just dont and dont have the energy.

[LanaBanana]

Hey guys!

Thanks for posting this, but now I'm really confused...  What's the difference between freeze and flight types and how they relate to fawning? I use alcohol to cope too, but I thought it was more of a dissociating response (that would fit into the freeze type). I use it primarily to numb what I'm feeling, not necessarily to escape a situation, if that makes sense? 

[Wife#2]

Hi! I'm jumping into this as a total newbie to all of it. I believe that I am a fawn/freeze. Here's why:

I will try to predict what you expect of me and to do that before you ask. If I've made you wait and ask, I want to do it RIGHT AWAY. If it's something I hate or don't want to do, or that hurts me, I will freeze into myself hoping it will go away before I have to respond. I hate hurting others feelings, even if they've trampled mine. You can hate me, I can cope. But, believing I let you down - I am crushed! If I can't immediately make it better, even denying my sincere thoughts and feelings on the matter, I will do all I can. If I know that nothing will be enough, then I'll hide inside my own head. I can get so deep in there that others have been astonished at what it took to get my attention!

I think that a fawn/flight would react like this: I will anticipate your needs and do all I can to make you happy and comfortable. But, if I get the (inevitable to me) impression that it isn't enough, I would try to control what I can by making sure everything is like it was LAST time things were ok. If I only felt ok last time when I (lined up all the cans in the cabinet, alphabetized the CD rack, scrubbed everything until it shown), then I need to do that again. Maybe I'll get that OK feeling again.

Alcohol can be a handy tool for the dissociation of freezing. It usually is a one way ticket into your own head, but has the tendency to turn the windows opaque, so you don't have to see too much on your journey.

[chairmanmeow]

I think what makes them distinctive as far as self medication gos is attitude.
Are you passive and lean to a learned helplessness, a sort of self abandonment which is a freeze tendency, to resign..
Or to flight active escape, to get as far away by whatever means, it takes much more energy, and flight types find comfort in burning energy and movement even if it takes them no place, hence the OCD tendencies.

[Sienna]

Hey  Lana banana
I can't send the to you but if you are able to read Pete walkers book -c PTAs/ from surviving to thriving it if you google freeze fawn trauma hybrid Pete walker it will explain.

Flight types run away instead of freeze. They are active: working a lot -going out - except sizing may be partying. Always  Buisy. OCD is very flighty behaviour. These are ways they run and distract from pain.
Freeze are inactive. They numb out, fantasise- basically they go into themselves. Avoid others.
Can do drugs to  achieve the disassociative numbing out effect .
It's not  abnormal for a phone type to use alcohol .
Any type of content alcohol but I think that it is a more freeze response .
Everyone has bits of all of the trauma trauma types in them.
  Wanting to know what you're feeling is understandable  totally .
Sounds like from my new found knowledge thanks to three roses, that you fawned, then froze and ended up freezing more as that was your only real option as a child.
Correct me if u think  wrong.
So now you freeze and use alcohol to numb / to achieve they feeling of being disassociated.
The dawn thing may come up now and again and sometimes you may fight or or flee but they are not your main responses.
Does that make sense?
Not sure if I'm right.
Pete  rocket talks about the phone flight as well on his website.  I think anyway or I might be thinking about the phone fight.
I think that my dad might be iPhone 5 it was a narcissist and he was very avoidant and run away a lot but that could be him dissociating .
It's all very confusing
I hope this helped

[LanaBanana]

Thank you Sienna, Chairmanmeow and Wife#2! I'm way more passive than I am active, so given what all of you have written, I'd fall into the freeze category rather than the flight one. That helped a lot, thanks! 

Also, has anyone ever dissociated to the point of falling asleep? It sounds weird, and I can't find anything about it anywhere, but it's like at some point during a dissociation episode, your body shuts down and you have the uncontrollable urge to sleep, even if you were perfectly awake 2 minutes ago. It has nothing to do with being tired, but it feels more like you have no control over your own body, kind of like narcolepsy. Has anyone ever had that? 

Thanks! 

[Three Roses]

"Freeze types often present as ADD; they seek refuge and comfort in prolonged bouts of sleep, daydreaming, wishing and right brain-dominant activities like TV, computer and video games...."  full info on all 4 types here - http://pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm

[chairmanmeow]

Dissociation allows the freeze type to disconnect from experiencing his abandonment pain, and protects him from risky social interactions - any of which might trigger feelings of being retraumatized. If you are a freeze type, you may seek refuge and comfort by dissociating in prolonged bouts of sleep, daydreaming, wishing and right-brain-dominant activities like TV, online browsing and video games. Freeze types sometimes have or appear to have Attention Deficit Disorder [ADD]. They often master the art of changing the internal channel whenever inner experience becomes uncomfortable. When they are especially traumatized or triggered, they may exhibit a schizoid-like detachment from ordinary reality. And in worst case scenarios, they can decompensate into a schizophrenic experience like the main character in the book, I Never Promised You a Rose Garden.

Walker, Pete. Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving: A GUIDE AND MAP FOR RECOVERING FROM CHILDHOOD TRAUMA (p. 118). Azure Coyote Publishing. Kindle Edition.

[LanaBanana]

Thanks guys! 

Are the bouts of sleep sudden and totally out of your control? I've had depressive episodes where I've overslept, felt lethargic, and found comfort in sleep. I was referring to a sort of sudden and uncontrollable urge to sleep while dissociating. I don't know if they are the same or if that's what Pete Walker meant.

Thanks for the responses!