The Body Keeps the Score

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Three Roses

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2016, 03:59:39 PM »
To be honest, if it has been mentioned I've not noticed - but I'll probably be reading these two books several times over. ;)

I'm hoping that there is something good down inside me to build on, something real, not the defenses I've always used.

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Boatsetsailrose

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2016, 07:01:04 AM »
Always something good to build on 3 roses and if when we get there we look and just see empty ness well that is an effective place to start - birth it
Defenses can be automatic patterns to shift ( as we know ) but with the right input they can disapate ...
These books bring so much hope it reminds me to start putting a little action in to feel a benefit ( however small - is so empowering

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Three Roses

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2016, 06:57:18 PM »
P. 273 "In our studies we keep seeing how difficult it is for traumatized people to feel completely relaxed and physically safe in their bodies. We measure our subjects HRV (heart rate variability) by placing tiny monitors on their arms during shavasana, the pose at the end of most classes during which practitioners lie face up, palms up, arms and legs relaxed. Instead of relaxation we picked up too much muscle activity to get a clear signal. Rather than going into a state of quiet repose, our students' muscles often continue to prepare them to fight unseen enemies. A major challenge in recovering from trauma remains being able to achieve a state of total relaxation and safe surrender."

I am constantly having to tell myself to relax! My muscles are usually tight, even if I'm lying in bed trying to go to sleep.

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Boatsetsailrose

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2016, 10:28:48 PM »
Yes me too - sometimes I notice I have clenched fists ( interesting ) my shoulders and head has pretty constant tension - have suffered headaches since being young ...
I find saunas really help with muscle tension ....

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Three Roses

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2016, 03:20:29 AM »
Going backward, to page 2: "Research from these new disciplines has revealed that trauma produces actual physiological changes, including a recalibration the brain's alarm system, an increase in stress hormone activity, and alterations in the system that filters relevant information from relevant from irrelevant. We now know that trauma compromises the brain area that communicates the physical, embodied feeling of being alive. These changes explain why traumatized individuals become hypervigilant to threat at the expense of spontaneously engaging in their day-to-day lives. They also help us understand why traumatized people so often keep repeating the same problems and have such trouble learning from experience. We now know that their behaviors are not the result of moral failings or signs of lack of willpower or bad character - they are caused by actual changes in the brain.
   "This vast increase in our knowledge about the basic processes that underlie trauma has also opened up new possibilities to palliate or even reverse the damage. We can now develop methods and experiences that utilize the brain's own natural neuroplasticity to help survivors feel fully alive in the present and move on with their lives. There are fundamentally three avenues: 1) top-down, by talking, (re)connecting with others, and allowing ourselves to know and understand what is going on with us, while processing the memories of trauma; 2) by taking medicines that shut down inappropriate alarm responses, or by using other technologies that change the way the brain organizes information; and 3) by allowing the body to have experiences that deeply and viscerally contradict the helplessness, rage, or collapse that result from trauma."

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Dutch Uncle

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2016, 10:17:47 AM »
Going off at a tangent: I've listened to the first two hours or so of the audio-bok, and what I remember is him telling that he could only really start processing the trauma's of the PTSD-affected veterans if they (as a group) had made him part of the (former) unit.
He tells how he first was given a Marine-uniform in treating Vietnam-vets, and then a uniform of Patton's Army for WWII-vets and perhaps even another one, before it dawned on him this ritual was part of him becoming "one of the boys", and this apparently was needed for them to really open up, for them to accept he really could understand and relate to their traumatic histories.

I think this forum and community serves a similar purpose, and unconsciously this helps us process our trauma and aid our recovery because we have found our "unit". Our friends, partners, siblings etc. "don't get it". And so we are tempted to keep holding back.
 :hug: to you all, fellow 'vets'.

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Three Roses

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2016, 03:38:03 PM »
Great insight!  :thumbup: I like thinking of you all as my unit. After all, we've all been thru the same *.

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sanmagic7

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2016, 04:09:00 PM »
amen to that!

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Boatsetsailrose

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2016, 04:37:00 PM »
Yes identification is so important isn't it - I love this forum ie the people here, really helps me feel secure, acknowledged and understood and I hope I provide that for others too ...
I've only really 'for ' quite recently that if we seek like minded and like experience others I get a sense of connection I've never felt before - esp with hobbies / activities - this is a new area for me as always been a work a holic --

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Three Roses

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2016, 02:11:17 AM »
P. 328 "Alpha-theta training is a particularly fascinating neurofeedback procedure, because it can induce the sorts of hypnagogic states - the essence of hypnotic trance - that are discussed in chapter 15. When theta waves predominate in the brain, the mind focuses on the internal world, a world of free-floating imagery. Alpha brain waves may act as a bridge from the external world to the internal, and vice versa. In alpha-theta training these frequencies are alternately rewarded.
   "The challenge in PTSD is to open the mind to new possibilities, so that the present is no longer interpreted as a continuous reliving of the past. Trance states, during which theta activity dominates, can help to loosen the conditioned connections between particular stimuli and responses, such as loud cracks signaling gunfire, a harbinger of death. A new association can be created in which that same crack can come to be linked to Fourth of July fireworks at the end of the day at the beach with loved ones.
   "In the twilight states fostered by alpha-theta training, traumatic events may be safely re-experienced and new associations fostered. Some patients report unusual imagery and/or deep insights about their life; others simply become more relaxed and less rigid. Any state in which people can safely experience images, feelings, and emotions that are associated with dread and helplessness is likely to create fresh potential and a wider perspective."

This sounds really interesting to me, and of all the therapies the book mentions it's one of a handful that I'd most like to try. Has anyone here had experience with neurofeedback?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 03:17:05 AM by Three Roses »

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Three Roses

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2016, 04:08:03 AM »
Kizzie - there is a case history cited in the neurofeedback section, regarding a young woman who had DID and after treatment stopped dissociating, going on to become a nurse. So, there's our answer - it sounds promising. :)

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Three Roses

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2016, 09:36:31 PM »
From "Epilogue - Choices To Be Made":

"Advances in neuroscience have given us a better understanding of how trauma changes brain development, self-regulation, and the capacity to stay focused and in tune with others....we now understand why traumatized people become disengaged, why they are bothered by sounds and light, and why they may blow up or withdraw at the slightest provocation....
   "People can learn to control and change their behavior, but only if they feel safe enough to experiment with new solutions. If trauma is encoded in heartbreaking and gut-wrenching sensations, then our first priority is to help people move out of fight or flight states, reorganize their perception of danger, and manage relationships....
   "Our increasing use of drugs to treat these conditions doesn't address the real issues: what are these patients trying to cope with?...
   "All of us...need...confidence that others will know, affirm, and cherish us. Without that we can't develop a sense of agency that will enable us to assert: 'This is what I believe in; this is what I stand for; this is what I will devote myself to.'
   "More than anything else, being able to feel safe with other people defines mental health; safe connections are fundamental to meaningful and satisfying lives.
   "Most great instigators of social change have intimate personal knowledge of trauma....Read the life history of any visionary, and you will find insights and passions that came from having dealt with devastation.
   "The same is true with societies. Many of our most profound advances grew out of experiencing trauma....Trauma is now our most urgent public health issue, and we have the knowledge necessary to respond effectively. The choice is ours to act on what we know."

(End of book)

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I highly recommend this book! It is available in audio book form on YouTube, free:
Part 1, https://youtu.be/Q9Nlrtq4mi4 chapters 1-10
Part 2, https://youtu.be/iEqDQB6FneU chapters 11-20
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 09:46:18 PM by Three Roses »

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Kizzie

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2016, 05:29:52 PM »
Kizzie - there is a case history cited in the neurofeedback section, regarding a young woman who had DID and after treatment stopped dissociating, going on to become a nurse. So, there's our answer - it sounds promising. :)

Sorry Three Roses, just saw this - I really do think it holds great promise for those of us with CPTSD, a reawakening of parts of the brain that are underactive, a calming of those which are hyperaroused, and better connection between areas overall is the way my T explained it to me although as this discussion has covered it's much more complicated than that.

According to the T I was seeing for NF (we have since moved), not that many T's use it because it does take specialized training and equipment, and it doesn't bring in revenue as easily and quickly as talk therapy or other forms of therapy.  He and his associates use it because of a shared clinical interest and because they see results, in particular with children (much as Van Der Kolk), but they don't make money from it.  He was a pretty straight up kind of guy as you can tell. 

I did ask him if sufferers could do this on his own (as with biofeedback) and he said "No" because it is complex and training is needed.   Not to be Debbie Downer, it just seems to be the case right now that access is limited in terms of available trained T's and having the personal financial wherewithal to undergo NF. In the long run though, if it's a smaller investment than ongoing medication, talk therapy etc., it may be more attractive to insurance and government agencies.

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"Trauma is now our most urgent public health issue, and we have the knowledge necessary to respond effectively. The choice is ours to act on what we know.

I suppose the question for those of us with CPTSD is "How do we act on what we know?"
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 05:34:25 PM by Kizzie »

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movementforthebetter

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2016, 08:02:07 PM »
May I still add to this thread or should I start a new one? Just started the book yesterday and would like to bounce some thoughts around.

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Three Roses

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Re: The Body Keeps the Score
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2016, 11:08:42 PM »
Go ahead here  :thumbup:

You're gonna love it  :applause:
Can't wait to hear your thoughts on it