Questions... Dreaming and EMDR

[meursault]

HI all,

I thought maybe people here might have some helpful advice.

I virtually NEVER dream (or rather, remember).  I'd say I've had three I remember in the last ten years.  I usually wake up feeling like I was just in a war zone, though, so I think I'm trying to deal with stuff in my dreams, but can't really do anything since I can't make a connection with my waking mind.

Anyhow, I had a dream last week that was painfully easy to interpret,  and it's actually staying with me as important.

I keep a pad and pen beside my bed, and usually talk to myself to be open to remembering my dreams, but it isn't working.  I've been doing it for a while, so maybe remembering that one dream was a sign of it working!  Anyhow, anything people here do to help them remember dreams?

Then there's EMDR.  I have been seeing my current therapist for several months, and still aren't doing EMDR, despite the fact I was recommended to her for that, and it's her speciality.  She's brought up that she thinks I could benefit from even pre-natal processing, and certainly pre-verbal.  Anybody have experience for that sort of thing?  It sounds kind of ridiculous to me.  I guess I just don't understand how it could be done.

Meursault

[Three Roses]

About dreams: I once listened to a show about a native community that placed a lot of importance on dreams and their interpretations. The children would tell theirs dreams to their parents, who interpreted them. In their society, it was taught that no one should ever run from anything in their dreams. At the time I was having a lot of bad dreams so I tried what they recommended - after getting in bed you were to repeat, "I will not run, I will not run," until you feel asleep. About the fifth night it worked! I woke up with a feeling of victory, and wasn't bothered by dreams again until recently. (Thanks! You reminded me about this!) So I'm wondering if it would work for you to say to yourself, "I will remember my dreams when I wake," or something.

I don't know anything about the therapies you're asking about, but if the brain never forgets anything really, then maybe even tho they're from a time you don't remember, all those memories are still there to be examined? 

[meursault]

Hmm...  The "I will not run" kind of sparked something in me.  I'm going to try that for a few days!

Thanks,
Meursault

[Three Roses]

Hey, look what I found -
https://m.facebook.com/evolversocialmovement/photos/a.346958347730.154009.309517367730/10154393186862731/?type=3&source=48&ref=bookmarks

[Dutch Uncle]

She's brought up that she thinks I could benefit from even pre-natal processing, and certainly pre-verbal.  Anybody have experience for that sort of thing?  It sounds kind of ridiculous to me. 

I haven't got a clue what she means by pre-natal, but it sounds fishy to me. Pre-verbal is something I could find sensible, Though that's a far stretch as well, IMHO.

Alternatively you could put your foot down and say: "Hey, I came here for EMDR. And I really want it. If not, I'll find another therapist who will."

In general, it's my personal opinion that unless upon remembering the dream one finds a clear connection to the now more or less instantly, there isn't much point in trying to 'explain' dreams.
And as far as I know, we don't remember most of our dreams. It's thought that any REM-sleep we have is filled with dreams/dreaming, and we have a couple of those REM-periods when sleeping every night. Yet at best I remember only one dream in the morning.

[sanmagic7]

hey, meursault,

i am an emdr-trained therapist, so i might be able to give you a little insight.  although i haven't actually worked with pre-natal or pre-verbal memories on others, i have worked on pre-verbal with myself.  and, yes, from everything i understand, the mind holds all memories in our lives.

before we are born, we are already experiencing 'life' through our mothers.  if mom is stressed, for whatever reason, that will resonate with us, even in the womb.  if she is using alcohol/drugs, smoking, in an abusive relationship, not taking care of herself, yelling, violent - anything that is stressful to the mom will be stressful to the unborn baby.  likewise, the opposite is true.

before we are able to speak, our minds are registering our environment as well.  whatever is going on in the home will register as a memory in the baby.  you may not be able to remember any of this, but it's there nonetheless.  and, you may not be able to put what happened into words because you didn't have words at the time. 

in other words, trauma, including abandonment and attachment issues may have already begun before you were even born.  i don't know your story, but i'm guessing you told it to your therapist, who has reached the conclusion that your traumatic experiences may have begun long before you can remember, and escalated from there.

if i were you, i would talk to your therapist about your concerns and confusion.  she has made a determination based on the history you have given her.  you do have the right to know what's going on and why, and have it explained to you in a way you can understand.   at least, that is my belief, and how i worked with my clients.

one thing i've discovered as i'm going on my own path of recovery from trauma is that it is tricky, intense in ways i couldn't have imagined, and that i believe my own started pre-natal.   (writing this just triggered this memory - i'll have to explore it in more detail for myself!)   back in those days i was known as an 'instrument baby' - the doc pulled me out of my mom using some kind of metal tongs, and they cut my face very near my eye.  i still have the scar.  since my mom was anesthetized, i have no doubt i was simply whisked away by a sterile nurse and treated in a sterile manner.  my dad used to tell me i was the ugliest baby he'd ever seen.  who knows what might have been said about me and to me while i was still injured!  i might not have been able to register the words, but intonations, voice inflections, 'ugly' words might have been used in my presence, and a baby would be able to pick up on all that.  even his saying that to me in later years stung. 

so, i hope you can talk to your therapist about this in order to understand why it's taking months to get to the actual bi-lateral stimulation phase of your emdr therapy.   and, actually, we do believe that emdr therapy begins from our first meeting with the client.  there are talk phases, assessment phases, clarification phases, and the actual desensitizing and reprocessing phases.  please remember that she is making this assessment carefully, and determining what she believes is best for you, but that doesn't mean that you have to stay confused about what's going on and why. 

i hope this has been helpful.  best to you with all this.  i do believe emdr is one of the most valuable trauma treatments available, and i also believe you will get relief. 

[meursault]

Three Roses;
I should try that.  I was drinking some dream-promoting tea for a while, but it didn't seem o do anything.  Maybe I should give it another go.

Durch Uncle:
It seemed kind of fishy to me, too!  Sanmagic's reply reassures me, though.

Sanmagic:
That's a relief, hearing your perspective.  I'm not even sure if she intends to do that for sure, or was just introducing the idea to see my willingness.  It kind of threw me off and I didn't ask.  She definitely wants to do pre-verbal stuff, though. 

At the risk of getting too graphic, my  mom used to proudly recount how she bit me and drew blood as a toddler, and used to laugh about how much I screamed (she legitimately thinks it was a great and creative bit of parenting.).  That's never really stood out as bad from her most of my life either.  My first memory was in a hospital when I was three or four, waking up in the middle of the night, and being terrified of my Mom's anger, because I had gotten the childproof safety pin undone to use the potty, but was unable to do it back up.  I remember a nurse coming and being kind of weird about how I was so scared of my Mom.  I remember the nurse telling my Mom in the morning, in a concerned voice, and my Mom laughing at me.  I remember the nurse looking confused and disgusted.  Disgusted at me, I assumed!  [It just occurred to me, maybe she was disgusted at my Mom.]

There are other signs/scars etc as well, but descriptions would be too explicit and potentially triggering.  More than anything, it's the TONE of my Mom's voice that was always the worst.  Spiteful, hate-filled, gleeful, self-righteous, certain, vicious.  She always took a lot of delight in scaring me so badly I'd shake or cry, she found it hilarious.  So I can see there's stuff that is probably still flailing around wildly in the ol' animal brain from before I could talk.

Considering how my Mom has bragged my whole life how she refused to name me after I was born because, as she's said:  I wasn't going to name a f*king boy!" maybe points to some hostility from her even in the womb, so maybe EMDR could help for that. 

I just don't know what it would look like.  What would I do?  I'll have to talk this out with my therapist, but it's kind of baffling.

It isn't that I'm feeling short-changed or anything by how long it's taking.  I feel like I'm moving as fast as I can without being out of control.   I worry I'm screwing up and she is frustrated and mad at me for taking so long and wants to get rid of me, though.  I spilt the beans about growing up right away with her, and she very quickly assured me she thinks it will take months before I can process a good memory.  She said she sees a lot of "Structural dissociation" happening.

I just worry she'll get rid of me because it's taking me so long.  My own issues, no doubt!  I want to be as prepared as possible to do the processing though, so I thought I'd get some perspective here!  I tell her this stuff, too, and she reassures me, but it still constantly worries me.

My early attachment was so abysmal I think it just takes a lot of time to not be terrified at my core when around other people.

Meursault

[Three Roses]

  to you, Meursault! I'm so sorry you had to go thru all that.

I just want to say one more thing tho, and I hope it reassures you; I doubt very much your T wants to "get rid of" you, bcuz that would hurt her profit margin. She has bosses too, I assume, who want their employees functional and productive for the good of the business. I hope this is something you can throw in your IC's face when he wants to make you afraid of losing your therapist. Happy hunting! 

[sanmagic7]

please, let me reassure you, i don't believe your therapist is mad at you, impatient with you, or wants to get rid of you.  the horror story of all you went through would, i'm pretty sure, cause concern within her, but it would be concern for you, for what you went through, and how to help you get to a place where you are comfortable enough to begin the next phase of processing.  a good therapist is always focused on the client's well-being first. 

when i began my therapy for c-ptsd in jan., i was seeing my t twice/week for two months straight before i got my entire story out.  she listened and took notes, and it was a relief to me, like i was puking the gunk out of my system and onto her notepad, and it was finally in someone else's hands, someone who would help me with it.  when i was finally done with it (and i hadn't spoken about anything that had happened to me before the age of 24! - but, she's not a trauma therapist, either), she looked at me and said that it was a lot to go through.  from what you've said, i would say the same thing to you.

which means, time.  any trauma therapist will acknowledge that and want to give you all the time you need.  her use of the term 'structural dissociation' tells me she knows her stuff.  as therapists, (most of us, anyway) we are looking out for your best interest, are glad to help you, and want to see you succeed.  your history has so many layers to it, and she can see that and understand what it will take for you to be able to safely, and safely is a key word here, move ahead. 

i give you so much credit that you have been so forthcoming with her.  it makes her job easier because she can see more clearly what has gone on in your life, what that might mean for you then and now, and the best routes to take to get you to where you want to go.  emdr therapy is client-focused - it goes where the client goes without criticism, judgment, accusations, threats, timelines, or preconceived notions. 

as far as how pre-natal or pre-verbal therapy might look, what you might be doing, saying, seeing - i'm guessing she will likely guide you to places, ask what comes to mind, and your mind will set the tone and pace from there.  it's all there and it will come out as it will, in the manner it will.  you won't have to think about it, it will just be there.  i don't know if that makes any sense to you, but i hope it can put you at ease a little bit. 

and, another reassurance.  you can't screw up.  that is an impossibility.  it's your mind, your memories, your experience - there is nothing that could possibly be considered wrong there.  your history is unique, and it is what it is.  no more, no less.

i would bet the ranch that the disgust on that nurse's face was for your mother, not for you.  i saw  a mom laughing at her infant son's terror once, and believe me, i felt nothing but disgust for her.  no one, especially a small child, should have to experience such horrors from a parent.  so, meursault, i do hope any of this has helped.  i believe you are in very good hands, therapy-wise.  and, i also believe you are doing a great job as a courageous client.  to let this stuff out is brave, to trust your t with your innermost vulnerabilities is more of the same.  big hug.

[meursault]

Three Roses:
That's something I keep in mind.  She has just gone into her own practice after years of working for others.  I was Receipt #19, in fact, on my first session.  Then I spin into a bunch of guilt:  "Here's this nice woman, just wanting to help people, and trying to make a go of it with her own practice, and then I come along, and she is stuck with a piece of Sh* like me!"  But looking at it, I am personally paying the rent for her space, so she must be aware of that.

Hey sanmagic!

Thanks for the comments.  I had therapy today and printed out your last post and read it to my therapist.  She had nothing but approval for what you said, and made "agreement noises" throughout.  She asked me to re-read the first paragraph, and then said "Exactly!"

She reiterated my window of tolerance is only a few seconds with good memories, since I am so activated to begin with, and it will take time.  On the whole, it was a good session.  She let me know it's important to slow things down if I feel I need it, since otherwise she is in danger of re-traumatizing me.

I think she's been thinking I'm a bit further along in this process than I really am, since I think I have a pretty good understanding academically, but just can't seem to connect it viscerally.  And I think I can mask just how agitated I normally am, I've had lots of practice.  There are lots of details I've never mentioned, either.  Like what I recounted about the hospital above.  She asked about that today, and asked something like "how old were you when you realized the nurse was probably disgusted with your Mom and not you?"  To which I replied:  "yesterday!"  We had a bit of a laugh.

I'm in the middle of a complete gutting and renovation of a house I bought, and she used this analogy: 

"What do you feel when you look at a house you've built or renovated?" 

"Pride in myself," I responded. 

"That's what I feel working with you.  We're building a house together and I take pride in how much I'm able to help," she said.

"Well, that would be pretty selfish of me to not accept your help with a house as f*ed as this one!  Damn, am I insensitive!"

Made me feel a bit better.

Anyhow, thanks for your comments!

Meursault

[Three Roses]

 

I'm excited to hear about your next sessions! My first appointment is coming up in about a week and your posts are helping to reduce my anxiety, so thanks

[meursault]

You're welcome!

(I'm kind of surprised anything I say could be of any help!  Nice to hear!)

Meursault

[sanmagic7]

and, you're welcome as well, meursault.  she sounds like a very good therapist with a broad knowledge of trauma.  i'm so glad you found her.

as an aside, since you originally mentioned dreams in your first post, i've often heard over the years that when we dream of a house or dwelling, that it is symbolic of our own selves.  so, her analogy of helping you build/renovate your own house (you) is right on.    that's exactly what you're doing. 

and, thanks for letting me know that you shared my post with her, and what her reaction was.  that was very validating for me, and felt really good.    once i was introduced by a supervisor to another colleague as 'our flaky therapist', and it's stuck like glue all these years, as hard as i've worked on getting rid of it.  so, when another therapist agrees with my assessment of a situation, it helps me tremendously.  which means, you've just helped me tremendously.  i really appreciate it.

i agree with her, also, about letting her know if you're going too fast, or if you're feeling uncomfortable with the pace.   trauma isn't to be taken lightly by anyone, and she wants to respect what feels best for you because, as you said, you've been very good at keeping your agitation hidden.   i hope you are able to respect that part of you as well.   you deserve it.

3 roses, i'm glad you're not quite as nervous about seeing your new therapist.    i hope you'll share the experience with us.  wishing you only the best. 

[meursault]

It's just goodness all around then!  What you (and others) have written on this thread has been really helpful to me, too! 

I don't think "unorthodox" is a bad thing, myself.  I have had a lifetime of belittlement and invalidation, pigeon-holing and obtuse misunderstanding from the mental health community.  I had been trying for twenty plus years to get help.  It feels like the last few years have started to signal a shift in the way things are done, though (at least from my perspective).  The medical model, viewing these things as pathological is now running in parallel with a more human (and for me at least effective) perspective that the pain we feel isn't a pathology, it's a natural adaptation to trauma.  The rigidity and dehumanizing status quo of the twentieth century is being answered with a more flexible and strengths-based way of doing things. 

That's how it looks to me at least!  Maybe I'm just seeing things since I've finally had luck with a therapist...

Meursault

[Dwonderer]

Hello Meursault,

I can somewhat relate to your experience about dreaming. Sleep rarely rejuvenate me. I typically woke up sweating feeling awful (your warzone example def. ring a bell). However I remember my dreams especially the "traumatic" one that jolt me from my sleep. I started reading this book in the past days: The Tao of Full Feeling by Peter Walker. Almost everything he wrote I can relate with and I knew in my heart was true. His book made me realize I was running away from my feelings. To be exact I was running away from feeling and experiencing the emotions related to traumatic events (They will be overwhelmingly painful).

My dream typically symbolitic though sometimes can be an actual event. For example I will dream of flying but in the middle of it my wings will stop working and I would struggle to remain in the air and avoid falling to my death. Last night I had uncomfortable dream that woke me up at 2 am. Instead of running away however I listen to what it is trying to tell me. Turned out it ended up explaining to me something that I def. never considered but rang true. It sounds to me that you recognize the important of listening to your body, mind and emotion.

I heard somewhere before that when you can't remember dream you actually are getting the sleep you need (because your mind arent supposed to be processing dream like when you are awake. Dreams are meant to process things in the background giving your body the rest it need). So if you can't remember dream but does not feel rejuvenate when you are awake (in fact the other way around), I wonder if it's because your mind and body are processing something that took a lot to process. Maybe if you actually recall the dream it's even more taxing for your body. Don't just take all my words but maybe there is something being repressed that needed to be processed but haven't been processed in waking hours so it turned to the dreamless exhausting sleep. Maybe the focus shouldn't be at trying to remember a dream but rather what is being repressed in waking hours.