continually needing validation

[sanmagic7]

responding to another post today brought up a realization about how much i search for validation.  i was validated in that post by another therapist re: my assessment of a situation.  it triggered a memory of a supervisor introducing me to a colleague as 'our flaky therapist'.   i suspect it was because i was a bit 'unorthodox' in my methods (as well as the way i spoke and dressed and wore my hair.  i definitely didn't fit the 'therapist' mold of conservative presentation.).  i knew i got great results because the adolescents i worked with let me know in words and deed, and my team also let me know.  i should be sure of myself.

but, i never am.  when i respond to posts (i'm on several different kinds of online forums, including one for emdr therapists), i hungrily search for some word of approval.  if i don't get it, i feel bereft and disappointed, like i didn't do anything good, like maybe i'm fooling myself.

i've gotten such wonderful feedback on this forum for my responses as well, but they're never enough.  like i have a bottomless well inside me that won't get filled.  i know it's unrealistic to expect that every word that comes out of my mouth is gold, but that's what i expect from myself, and when i don't get acknowledged for a positive contribution, i feel depleted, my self-worth is in the toilet, and i struggle to just let it be. 

but, when i do get validation, i often weep with relief that i was right all along.  or, it's like i simply expected it, and kind of brush it away.  or, i just have a difficult time feeling it for what it is and knowing that i deserve it, or that it's ok to allow simple good feelings about it.  i'm afraid that i utilize my shield of arrogance at times, instead of feeling humble about what i contribute.  that shield has served me as a way to not feel like i have to take care of everyone else.  o, geez, this all goes back to my dad and his unrealistic expectations of me to be perfect in every way, shape, and form. 

so, always looking for validation from him, and, instead getting 'you can do better', i've grown to be accomplished in many areas that i can't  give myself credit for, and am always looking for that credit outside myself.  (in reality, altho i thought i'd dealt with this over the years, i'm still looking for him to say he's proud of me).  it's an obsession.  i think i respond to people just to get the validation, sometimes.  how utterly sad.  how painful it is to admit this.  embarrassing.  shameful. 

and there's my shame, something i haven't allowed myself to acknowledge.  i feel like a validation whore.  i can see my work is cut out for me in this area.  but, it explains why i cry at scenes of unconditional acceptance, scenes of true humility in people, scenes of caring and kindness, and above all, scenes of allowing validation as the cherry on the cake, instead of the fundamental ingredients.  there is no cake without them, and that's how i feel.  there is no real me without continual validation.  dang, this is a deep layer of the onion.  very depressing, so i must be really angry, but haven't tapped into it quite yet.  lots of sad, tho.  but, my anger always hides under my sad.  gotta dig it out.

[Three Roses]

You're shiny & Wonderful! Seriously, I get so much out of your posts, even this one bcuz it's how I feel too. If someone responds to a post after me I almost always think, "That's what I should have said."

[sanmagic7]

thanks, 3 roses.  you are so comforting, you really are.  i've loved your responses.

i think i need to change validation whore to validation junkie.  always after a fix.  i did do some work on this after i posted, got to the source, blasted away, then much sobbing.  i'm feeling a bit calmer now.  glad i wrote here.  it always helps.  we'll see if more comes up, but i bit a pretty good chunk of it off.  this is totally whack-a-mole  --  i smack one thing  down, another thing pops up! 

[radical]

I feel like I understand.
I so envy people who don't seem to need validation very much, who stand in their own shoes and have the confidence to just let the chips fall  where they will.

Ironically, it is when I need the least validation that people validate me in all sorts of little situations, sometimes praise, but mostly with smiles, and acceptance, validation seems most prevalent on the rare occassions when I need it the least.  Today I burst into tears at my work, told my boss off for patronising me, I was such a mess. I apologised, and feel awful. I'm not usually like that, I'm usually more buttoned-up.  Today I could just use a hug and people who I feel I belong with, but I feel so alone.

I have to be able to tell myself I'm okay, to be able to rely on myself, but I feel needy and broken, completely flaky.  I try not to be a validation junky, but I feel like i could use a group where I can stand up and say Hi, my name is Radical, and I'm a validation addict.  I feel useless and worthless and I need people to tell me I'm not.

I'm up to the last step in removing dysfunctional people and situations from my life and I feel the abyss opening up before me. There will never be any validation of what has happened over my life that caused me to reach this place.  People see a crazy woman, nothing else.

[Three Roses]

Radical, that's why I enjoy my al anon meeting, they're as messed up as I am and they get it! I can tell them all my dysfunctional ways of coping and the many ways I mess up and they just nod and smile, cuz they're the same

[movementforthebetter]

  to you, sanmagic7. If it's any comfort at all, you are not alone.

One of my major goals from therapy for myself is to *know* that I can care from myself and have a full life oitside of a romantic relationship. I rely heavily on others for validation currently. Partners, employers, friends. I am trying to break all these reliances because I know they are really about validation I didn't get as a child. I am also guilty of searching for validation through my writing here.

I will stand witness to your truth. It's not approval, but I acknowledge that it comes from a real need inside us. I hope that bearing witness to this pain gives us eventual strength to overcome the urge to seek the approval of others in the future.

I will bear witness here as many times as you need to post about it. As for actual tools, I don't much know.

For myself, I think it ties into realizing/knowing in my bones that I am worthy no matter if I am right or wrong. I still haveblots of work to do on that. Not sure if that resonates for you or not.

[sanmagic7]

thank you everyone.  still reeling, too much stuff came up, ef's everywhere. i'm tense and exhausted.  more later.

[sanmagic7]

this opened a huge door for me, did 2 funerals, and am feeling a little bit shaky.

the first funeral was to lay to rest that 'flaky therapist' comment.  it was good, but brought up so much more emotionally, it took me by surprise.   lots of anger (lots of pounding the bed), lots of sadness (lots of sobbing).   i was emotionally wrung out by the end of the day.

this morning i had a funeral for the outside validation need.  as i was writing, i discovered that it was just like any other addiction (which is why i unknowingly, at the time, changed my feeling to validation junkie).  i had a bottomless pit that i was attempting to fill with validation from others, and it's really the first time i'd had that sensation.   it wasn't like i was wrong, it wasn't self-doubt, it was like what i had said/done/written was nothing, it didn't count, unless that validation showed up.  very strange feeling.

even tho i'm in recovery for substance abuse, i don't recall consciously feeling like this with the subs.  maybe that's because this was much more relevant to the essence of me, my being.    at any rate, it's a bit scary.   my perception of me has changed, my perspective of who i am in the world has changed, and i don't know exactly what that means yet.

i posted responses to others twice before coming here, very mindful of this new reason for responding.  it was strange!  i wrote from my heart as always, but with different expectations of how what i wrote would be taken, and whether or not my responses would be acknowledged - meaning, whether i would be acknowledged.    it was like my responses have been a total equation to me, myself.

as i write this, i don't feel anxious about how someone will see what i wrote, or whether what i wrote will be acknowledged.  it has been directly related to showing my worth as an individual through helping someone else, but at this very moment, i'm not feeling that.   very strange!  i'm feeling whole, where before i felt hollow. 

i'm scared it won't stay with me, but i know this is something very important for me to accomplish, because it's one of the things that has made me sick, and has kept me sick.   for example, when i first read the responses to my original post, i immediately wanted to acknowledge everyone's response individually, but was too overwhelmed to do so.  which is why i wrote that i was exhausted - a sort of mea culpa for not getting back to everyone right away.    it's part of my illness that i must make everyone else feel good about themselves, and acknowledge them because that's what i needed for me.   it was sort of like i was role-modeling in order to get my own needs met.  this is trippy.

to let go of that 'must' for others and 'need' for me go hand in hand.   i was taught that, since i was the oldest kid, i must set the example.   and, that's what i've been doing as best i could for over 60 yrs.   whew!   yes, i guess it's time to say good-bye to that.  my stomach churns at the thought.  (this must be part of my ibs)

one other thought occurred to me.  someone wrote about getting validation when it was least needed, and how often that happens.  when i wrote about the funeral for my daughter, most of the responses were about how courageous and brave i was.  i didn't feel courageous or brave when doing that, just that it was something that had to be done, so i was going to do it.  however, my original post here made me feel extremely courageous, i could feel that about myself, and funnily enough, not one person made a remark about being courageous.  yet, admitting this flaw about myself, which i felt shameful about (even writing about it right now) took more courage than any other thing i can think of.    weird how that works, how one thing seems courageous to someone and not to another.  human beings are so complex, so fascinating to me.

so, today, i want to say thank you to everyone who responded.  i truly appreciated it.  i'm grateful for you all.  ok, i must stop now.

[movementforthebetter]

Thanks for coming back and writing more. This thread is about a core issue for you and it's also a core issue for me so I can't even begin to thank you enough, honestly. It's like you opened up your soul and it turned out to be a mirror. I will be returning to this thread.

Reading this has been like skipping a grade in school or getting credit for a class I don't have to take. But I am a little worried as to whether learning from your experiences will work for me the same as coming to the realization myself.

About bravery and courage: my friend and I were talking about them yesterday and we both agreed that the true measure of bravery is to be afraid of something but have the strength of conviction to do it anyway. So both for the funerals for your daughter and for this validation issue, there is no question of your bravery, sanmagic7. I may not always say it but I definitely feel it about anyone undertaking this kind of personal growth work. I'm even learning to feel it for myself, too. Others said it about me in the past and I didn't believe them, even recently.

"it's part of my illness that i must make everyone else feel good about themselves, and acknowledge them because that's what i needed for me. It was sort of like i was role-modeling in order to get my own needs met." Yes, me too, exactly! I always referred to it as "the golden rule" and couldn't figure out why the way I treated others didn't have a positive impact on how they treated me! It must be because my motivation was from that empty pit of need, and others rarely if ever act from that place because most of them don't even have it and can't imagine how sensitive I am or why.

Ironically, you aren't relying on a reply for validation, and here I am cheering you on because I can barely believe how much I identify!

If you are up for it, I would like to know about the actual process of your funeral. I read through your other posts. I was wondering how you set it up, how long you allot to each issue, and any parts of your ritual you feel comfortable mentioning. I think I should try this myself, too.

[Sandstone]

Doing such work on ourselves is a very brave thing to do by any means.  Its gotta be one of the hardest things, to face and deal with ourselves so honestly and openly. 
When I first started posting on here I gauged others responses as a measure of my worth.(still do) I also seriously deliberate my responses, always worried im saying the wrong thing and that everyone else seems to manage to say the right thing. I try to pick up cues from others as I struggle getting out whats in my head.

Whenever I read your replies they come across heartfelt, genuine and very wise. I wish I could be like that. Anyway what I want to say is, you're vulnerability and honesty has given me the courage to admit my insecurities and my needs for validation so thank you for that.

Now im hoping iv not said the wrong thing or if what iv said is even relevant to your post as im rubbish at conveying ugh!

Needless to say, I understand.

[radical]

I'm so grateful you started this thread, San Magic.  It's such a big issue for me.

A while ago, something happened.  Details aren't important.  Intense feelings came up.  I felt the strongest pull to respond, to "do the right thing".  but that thing wasn't the right thing for me.  I let the feelings happen and it was overpowering.  There was huge internalised social pressure as well as genuine empathy for the person concerned.  I felt awful, like I was disintegrating.  Can't describe the feelings.

Anyway I somehow got myself to the car and drove to work, parked, then when I was walking, I felt whole and real.  I felt great sadness still, but i realised that this is why I need to do this work.  I feel empty and hollow, like a bottomless pit that can never be filled.  I seldom experience my own substance and fullness, but when I do, when I am, I understand something, and I wish I could describe what that is.

I don't feel it now.  I'm radical, validation junkie, but there is something so much more that isn't dependent on anything outside, that is connected, alive, enough.

[sanmagic7]

hey, everyone,

radical:  to know that feeling of wholeness seems to be such a gift.  i'm really glad you've felt it, at least once.  i believe that if you can feel it once, it's there always, only hidden at times, and it'll come again.  i'm still holding onto mine from yesterday, but it still feels shaky.  i don't know exactly what i need to do to have it solidify for me.  probably just keep working at chipping away at this crap.   which is more do-able than ever with all this newfound support.  it's wonderful.

sandstone:  what you've said is just right.   no rubbish involved!  and you sounded totally heartfelt, genuine, and wise.   understanding comes from wisdom, is what i believe.  you said that my post gave you the courage to admit your own insecurities and need for validation.  well, even with my post, you didn't have to admit them, but you took the risk and did it anyway, so good for you!   it is such a struggle to get out from under it.  and it brought up another big realization for me as well. 

it really blows me away, this.  i posted this completely focused on me, and several of you have mentioned how it helped you.  with all my helping instincts focused outward, it boggles my mind that when i'm focused inward some very profound insights and actions have manifested themselves anyway. 

this happened once before in my work with adolescent girls.  a teacher was having a problem with one of my charges, i was called, went into the class and took my girl off to the side.  we chatted a bit, she was able to calm down and return to her seat to finish the class.  after i left that place, this teacher said to my friend/colleague, after relating that experience - i know now how much you're going to miss her (me).   that's the first time i realized that i have an impact on people by just doing my own thing.  this posting, and all the responses give me the same feeling.  i'm marveling at it, because it wasn't something i had consciously planned to do - to help others with what i'd written.  whew!

movementforthebetter:   the fact that you looked into what you saw as a mirror and acknowledged it within yourself - isn't that what realization is all about?  does it really matter where we get it from, or how it comes to us?  i've learned from tv shows, movies, conversation, postings, books, and other peoples' experiences, have had aha! moments because of them.  i don't think the source matters if you make it your own.  i know a lot of people in recovery, especially in 12-step groups, who never 'own' the experience.  they are very good at repeating slogans, quotes from the big book, etc., but they never internalize it.  they'll say 'step 7 says so and so', but i don't hear them saying 'i think . . .'.  i've heard this from religious people, trendy self-help stuff, all the way back to the hippie movement.  spouting sayings, but never making them their own, never personalizing them, no independent thinking about them.  so, if you've brought something into your self from reading about my experience, i've just been a source, and you can own it.

funerals:  my funerals take place on my computer.  that's where i spend a great deal of my day.  i began these by acknowledging that i had a lot of losses due to this c-ptsd beast, and i hadn't really taken the time or mindfully paid attention to them.  i'd read that we need to grieve our losses, and i realized that i hadn't.  i have cried a lot at scenes of joy, sorrow, pain, love, kindness - all kinds of things, and i began wondering why i cried so at these things.  as i thought about it, they all led to something i was missing from my life, something i'd never had, never felt worthy of having, couldn't take in and feel, or had and lost due to my illness, behaviors, and/or choices.  i've had at least 25 funerals so far, and still have a list waiting!

so, that was my original way to acknowledge losses, and it seemed that when we 'lose' someone, we usually have a funeral of some kind for that person.  that's how the idea of funerals for everything came to be.  then, i just thought about the elements of a funeral.  flowers, of course.  i put 'funeral arrangement images' into my search engine, and loads of different kinds of flower arrangements, all types, colors, some surrounding a casket, some on their own. 

the first thing, then, in the making of a funeral, i thought about what i was going to have a funeral for.  for example, i had one for my lovely little house that i had to leave.  i loved that house.  then, as i looked through the assortment of funeral arrangements, keeping my house and my feelings for that house in mind, i kept scrolling until one hit me as being just the right arrangement to symbolize my house.  i set that image on my desktop on my computer, and i also copied and pasted it into the document where i do my journaling.

i arranged the picture of the flowers to be just the size i wanted them to be on the page, and i began writing.  all my thoughts, feelings, everything within me about that house needed to come out of me and onto that page.  i felt the emotions, and expressed them appropriately (when i felt sad, i cried/sobbed, just let it out.  when i felt angry, i went and pounded on my bed, yelled, swore, cursed everything and everyone i could think of that had something to do with me having to leave my house behind.)  my narc ex lived in that house until recently, had changed everything (i've visited there over the years), and so much of what i loved about the house and the grounds was gone - i call it mutilated and destroyed), including both inside and outside.  (and, i realized later that i needed another funeral for the gardens that i'd worked on that were now gone.)

but, at this present time, i wrote it all out in my journal document until i felt that it was all out of me, and then i wrote 'good-bye'.  but, the funeral flowers were still on my desktop, and i'd see them and think of my house with wistfulness and sadness, and i kept them there until the 'punch' of that sadness was reduced to a more neutral feeling.  it's gone, it's done, it's time to move on, kind of thing.

for my daughter and my narc ex, one of the arrangements i picked out included a casket and that company's array of different kinds of flower arrangements.  there were about 10 different types of arrangements in the picture.  this symbolized, for me, all the many layers involved in losing these people from my life.

depending on what the funeral was for, how emotionally depleted i was, sometimes i would go on to a new one, sometimes i'd just change the image on my desktop to a peaceful, calming image so i could rest a bit.  eventually, when i get back to my therapist, i will (she suggested this as a finality) print these out, and one by one, acknowledging each one and saying good-bye aloud, tear each one into pieces and throw them away.  that part will be the most difficult for me, but i can see its value, too.  that's why i'm gonna do it while i'm with my t.  and, i don't know how many i'll be able to do per session, either, but i'll have to wait and see for that.

that's basically how my funerals go.  they've been extremely helpful for me.  i discovered that i've got another one to look forward to, maybe more than one in the same vein.  i've had another huge issue come up overnight, and i'm trying to find a way to be ok with it.  but, i'll write about it on another thread.  so, i hope any of this was helpful.  thanks for asking.   love to you all, and a big hug.

[Laila]

Hi Sanmagic and All who have posted here.

I have found this a touching conversation and a real eye opener to how my issues could impact others in these forums.  I too need validation - however over the years I have learnt to cope with the lack of validation far better than I used to.  If I am not validated I have a tendency to presume I am disliked.

The thing is recently I did not respond to a reply that was sent to a post of mine.  The response that I received was highly appreciated (apart from being useful on a practical level I also felt seen).  But being new I also felt inferior and presumed that I am unlikeable anyway and that any return reply that I sent would only be annoying. 

Additionally for various reasons my head then became redirected into troubled thoughts about sexual abuse - which was probably best not written about at the time.  I also have children & a very demanding job which can create difficulties in finding time to process and feel comfortable in my reply.  I feel very inadequate and unworthwhile which will cause me a lot of hesitation in replying or contributing to a post. 

Hopefully, you can see from this that my lack of response tells you about me and my limitations - &I presume this is the case with many non validators.

I think you are all beautiful.  The people in this forum often seem troubled yet so deep and for me a deepness in the heart is a quality that is invaluable and so special.

Sanmagic7, you comment about not feeling anger but believing it must be there.  Do you really believe it is there?  For me I believe there is a deeper anger that I am not aware of - however as anger is often considered a secondary emotion - I also believe that as a matter of survival I have learnt to go to the primary emotion very quickly.   Sometimes I wish I could be angry at those who have hurt me - but I can't.  I feel too much love. ??..

Thank you all for reminding me that I am not the only one who is insecure and needing validation and recognition.

[sanmagic7]

laila, thanks for your response.  you labeled one of my demons, which i didn't even realize about myself - that needing all that validation was the earmark of the sense of insecurity i felt about myself.  i know it's been said before, but for some reason, when you wrote it, it resonated with me, and i could own it.  funny how that happens sometimes.  others have mentioned validation and insecurity, and i didn't relate it to myself on a conscious level.  now i have.  thank you.

personally, i don't think anger is a secondary emotion.  i believe all emotions are equal.  it's just that i was raised not to allow my anger to be seen or heard, so i learned to submerge it within myself.  instead, i decided sadness was more okay (even though i still got yelled at for being sad, crying - it was like no emotions were okay unless they were happy, 'positive' emotions).  i was also taught not to ask questions - children should be seen and not heard - so i stifled myself on many levels.

as i moved along in recovery, i discovered my anger, but it was almost always masked by sadness and hurt.  i've felt sad since i can remember - people would ask me why i was so sad when i was just sitting there not doing or saying anything - i wore my sadness in my eyes and covered my anger with it.  my anger is still difficult for me to access at times, but i'm getting better at it, at feeling it in the moment.  often it takes me a day or three to realize i'd gotten angry about something.  lately, it's becoming more natural for me, but i'm still a bit skittish with expressing it to someone.  so, the process continues. 

feeling love for the people who have hurt me was pretty normal for me, too, for most of my life.  or, making excuses for them.    i can love my daughter, but i'm mad as h*** at what she's done to me.  and, i refuse to have her in my life anymore because of that.  other people i've stopped loving, except, perhaps in a very generic love for all humankind way.  some i hate.  i'm feeling a new freedom at having emotions, feeling them just as they are, and letting that be ok, even if it's two or more emotions at the same time. 

i'm really glad you responded.  it made me smile.

[meursault]

This is a really good thread.  I'm seeing a lot of myself in it too.  I really like the funeral idea.  I think I need to organize about a million of them!

Something you said, Laila, made me realize something.  Your comment about anger.  I rarely get angry, and when I do it's turned into self-destruction.  I think some people mistake it for anger when I'm overwhelmed with panic sometimes, though.   Anyhow, I've always said that I go right past anger so fast it gets to the foundation pretty much immediately, whether fear or hurt or despair.  Getting mad when I was little wasn't really an option.  It just made it worse from my Mom.  She would just escalate things until I was stomped on anyways.  The occasional times I do get angry, I'm "not very good at it" either, and it's mostly just loud panic attacks.

There have been several comments I've read on this forum that I always thought I was the only one who felt that way.  Like Laila's comment about if I'm not being validated I assume I'm disliked.  Like sanmagic's "validation junkie" (I think "validation whore" fits me a it better, although I've used the term "Approval-junkie" before.)  And I've seen others say they feel like they're a monster, disgusting etc as a core belief.  There are lots of other comments that show commonality. 

Just knowing others have the same issues makes me feel less alone, and makes me feel like this is just the pain we are carrying, it is not us!  I don't know how to explain it, really. 

My last (awesome) therapist finally convinced me she considered my Mom abusive, and had said something like "You were abused on so many levels."  My current therapist has said "There were so many instances of trauma growing up I can't even count." and "If that was happening nowadays and child and family services found out, you'd be out of that house the same day and your Mom would never see you again."

If I reverse the genders, my childhood was clearly abuse, but I have a really hard time believing it in my case:  "IT was right because I'm me, and therefore deserved it.  It's a special case scenario."  It's such a fundamental way of looking at things:  "It wasn't abuse because I deserved it."

Which was kind of floating around in my head from sanmagic's comments about validation.  I feel that need here, and after I post something, I go through a process of thinking I don't belong, I'm an a*hole, nobody wants to hear my stupid, self-indulgent crap, everybody hates me or is laughing at me etc etc.  I've been needing validation from my therapist pretty badly.  It's like this stuff has hurt me terribly, but I need constant validation that I didn't deserve it and that I'm worth something, because I grew up in a system where it was the norm to be treated as sub-human garbage, and it was just and right and rational -- it was SO RIGHT that it didn't even need to be discussed or defended.  How can I NOT need that validation when my fundamental and initial understanding of the world leads me to believe I'm just garbage?  This stuff is so hard to work through, especially when there is often a belief I don't deserve to feel better.

Anyhow, sorry if this comment is inappropriate,

Meursault