Just a little info i found interesting *Triggers here*

[Sienna]

Doing a life coaching online course. Found out this:
We go through Transition periods in life, such as when learning to ride a bike.

Its normal to experince-
Tears of frustration and to think negative thoughts such as:
*eg.- ill never be able to ride a bike*- its a self for filling prophecy
We go trough a TRANSITION PERIOD-
from incompetence to competence
despite trials and tribulations- when learning new things.
Why???
Because we cant go from incompetence = compotence-
WITH OUT
the PAINFUL transition period (known as a learning curve)
You will likely experience:
.Anger
.Frustration
.Stress
.Anxiety
.Fear
.a number of other emotions
.Physical pain from falling off your bike

You experience ANXIETY - as your afraid to ride with out someone holding the seat.
Your experience euphoria when you finally do it on your own.
You want to take that risk, becasue you believe the end result will be wroth it.
Its ok if you fail- because you can just try again
Your self belief is that you can do it
.You are in control of the situation
.In control of your learning
.and in control of the outcome

Learning to ride a bike was not a good time for me. I definitely didnt experience euphoria, just anxiety and feeling bad.
Reading this..im not sure i did go through this normal transition period of learning a new skill.
I don't think my fear of riding was validated.
I must have disassociated that away, especially as the parent teaching me was so angry with me not picking it up right away and for feeling afraid (their own insecurity and frustration probably).

and this anger when i cant do something comes up now... sure, i was made to do things myself at too young an age and i knew i wasnt *allowed* to ask for help so i got angry with myself.
but like all the other stuff- feelings that were not felt back then and processed- come back up now.
How does one as a child, manage to learn new skills, when they cant complete the natural transition period and feel the emotions that naturally come up?? Maybe this is part of developmental stages that were missed??
and maybe our experiences like these ones- set our beliefs up for adult hood ie. there is pain in learning a new skill

[movementforthebetter]

This really hits home today. Thank you for posting it. Time to cuddle my inner child.

[Sienna]

Aw movementfortgebetter,  sending hugs 
I'm sure your inner child appreciates the comfort you are giving to her, and I hope you are ok

[radical]

Isn't it strange?

I recognise all those parts of the process of learning, and yet the learning itself is always invisible to me. Riding a bike is a good example.  You don't know, there are all those steps along the way, but they are only recognisable by the feelings, then you start to know.  In my brain it seems to go don't know - frustration, angst etc.-  know.  Shouldn't there be some understanding of the parts of the process of coming to know, beyond just the feelings?  It would be so much easier if the process wasn't unconscious, it would feel so much more controlled.  I have a feeling that some people experience learning more consciously and it doesn't seem seem like a kind of magic where you go from one place to another with just uncomfortable feelings in between.  When i was studying this frustrated me hugely.  I wished I could experience getting from A to B beyond a confusion of feelings. 

I realise you are talking about a much deeper kind of learning, but I tend to experience this with every kind of learning.  I don't seem to trust that I will get there, so I feel a huge desire to know every physical step on the way, rather than it being some kind of mysterious miracle that I can't control.

[sanmagic7]

i relate to these stages of learning and the missing pieces.  what i'm finding out about myself is that i often learn by watching (if it's a physical thing), and all those stages take place in my mind, both consciously and subconsciously.  then, when i go to do it, i just do it.  with practice, i get better at it, but the initial learning takes place by watching.

but, even with this journey, as i've attacked this 'stuff' from as many different angles as i've been able to think of (writing, drawing, physically, visually, mentally, etc) i don't always realize what's going on at a conscious level.   i'm just coming up for air after 8 months of battling for my emotional life, and i'm only becoming aware of myself on a real level weeks and months after i was tackling a specific issue. 

just last week, i became overwhelmed with everything, felt like i was drowning, and had to take a break from all of this, including this forum, for a few days.  during that time, pieces of the learning i had been doing began consciously clicking into place, and i was able to define myself, and become comfortable with that for the first time since i can remember.

this is a process that most certainly is different for everyone.  my feelings about it all are the last to show up, while others report that their feelings are at the fore.   i want to say that i do it backwards, but that's not right.  i just do it my way, as everyone else does it their own way.  we are fascinating creatures.

[Sienna]

Hey radical,
Im wondering, if don't mind explaining, what you mean, when you say that the learning is always invisible to you?
Do you mean..it just sort of..happens ..then Oh! your at the finish line and you have learned?

Shouldn't there be some understanding of the parts of the process of coming to know, beyond just the feelings?

The course might go on to talk about learning practically...i know that depending on what they are learning...each thing you learn might involve entirely different steps than something else- partial steps i mean.

Maybe everyone has unconscious feelings added to conscious ones when learning...but maybe the unconscious ones for us could be trauma that is not processed?
I think that if people are ...healthy...if that exists...i think they should perhaps be in touch with their feelings at least and allow the feelings and to know that they are ok.

I don't seem to trust that I will get there, so I feel a huge desire to know every physical step on the way, rather than it being some kind of mysterious miracle that I can't control.

I understand this radical. I think that, for us, (depending on the person)...not being in control is hard. 
Im wondering if lack of trust, may mirror caregiver lack of faith..which in turn, may provide us with lack of self belief and lack of belief in your ability.

Don't know if i should put this...or if anyone is interested...
I heard that...fear of faliour...
(and i don't know if its true or from a good source)- but anyway-
People who are afraid to fail, usually self sabotage and give up-
even if they are almost to the end of their learning / achievement-
becasue it feels better to say, i *could* have succeeded, -
i just didnt continue or-
I would have failed- rather than- following through to the end- and possibly failing-
because that feels more scary than the possibility that they could fail.

I know that for me, there is no real enjoyment i guess out of learning...ie. my new thing is to teach myself to knit...bit i know i will find it hard, and that i will most likely feel defeated and powerless.
This may be the same for you and the other guys...or not...but i know there wasnt much patience given to me when i was learning- lots of anger and shaming...
Hense- im not patient with myself...and its hard to feel proud of the steps of accomplishment

I was shocked to read what i read on the course. But i never imagined that questions would come up...and that others would take so much interest. This is great.

[Sienna]

Hey Sanmagic,
Im so sorry to hear that you have been having a really rough time. 
i relate to these stages of learning and the missing pieces. 

Its so great that you've learnt this about yourself

what i'm finding out about myself is that i often learn by watching (if it's a physical thing), and all those stages take place in my mind, both consciously and subconsciously.  then, when i go to do it, i just do it.  with practice, i get better at it, but the initial learning takes place by watching.

I think that a lot of this trauma related stuff, is stored in the sub conscious. If you think of it as a life time of trauma- how is the mind meant to contain all that...thats how i imagine it anyway...maybe there is more stored in the subconscious that we think...
Plus, its overwhelming. So i don't think you can always be aware of what is happening emotionally if your conscious mind...I wonder if the conscious part of the mind that notices the stuff comming out of the sub-conscious mind...goes off line for a bit...but stays present for everyday practical activities...(sometimes-maybe not all the time)
And than, as you said, your conscious mind - your understanding- catches up after the whirlwind of emotion.
With flashbacks, i know that you can feel like a child- as overwhelmed a a child who has such a small mind..a mind not equipt to deal with trauma- adults have issues with that!
So you may be overwhelmed and confused..then you come back out of that state.

my feelings about it all are the last to show up, while others report that their feelings are at the fore. 

Yes, if we are talking trauma related learning and feelings- for me at the moment, there is not much feeling...practical learning tasks i only feel frustration and other related frustration defeated feelings.
I don't know if this is right or not. Im talking dissociation wise...and other ...spiritual learning ..is just...feeling..interest and i can absorb it more naturally. If it triggers...i avoid.- though i cant cry and ..yeah...hope you know what i mean.

[Sienna]

Movementforthebetter, i hope your doing ok. If not- thats ok too- we are here for you.

[movementforthebetter]

Thanks, Sienna. I've had some good things happen that have brought up a lot of negative feelings. Plus I'm sick and it's that time of month, so just trying to lay low, cope, and not self-destruct, haha.

Even as an adult, I do find that process for learning holds true. I don't always feel any particular feelings from learning new things, but sometimes I do just as the list indicates. I'll be learning lots again when the new job starts so I will get to ride this rollercoaster again.

[radical]

Yes, i think you are right Sienna.
I know that in healthy families, children's learning is "scaffolded", usually by caregivers.  Children learning a puzzle for example, have someone asking helpful questions, offering suggestions, and giving encouragement.  I didn't have that.  i figured things out for myself, and while that has advantages,one of the things that is missing is the internalised message of "you can do this", all those messages that children get while they are learning that helps them feel confident while they learn.  It helps them know that they can learn as well as supports them to understand the links in the process.

Like you, I have a terrible fear of failure and have to battle despondency when I learn something new, during the stage between not knowing and knowing.  Every single time I feel a kind of panic, and because of that I wish I could understand the unconscious parts of learning.

Ironically, I love learning.  i just wish it didn't arouse such intense feelings.

Just saw your post movement for the better.  Sorry you are struggling right now   It's so scary getting on and staying on that rollercoaster.

[sanmagic7]

interesting thread.  i believe our subconscious mind stores everything we experience, including input from our senses, and that it filters and holds this information for us.  without it, we would be overwhelmed by input every minute.   this includes benign and traumatic input.  for example, even if we were to attempt to be aware of everything we see every minute, i do believe we would go mad.

if that is the case, then i believe that dissociation is an attempt by our subconscious to protect us from an overwhelming amount of emotional input coming at our conscious minds.  i don't consciously recall having dissociation experiences, but i do know about being overwhelmed, and it isn't pleasant.  it's like everything goes haywire at the same time.  ugly, awful, disconcerting, destabilizing, panic-inducing.    and i become completely out of touch with my abilities to cope. 

thanks, sienna, for your care and concern.  everything's better right now.  movementforthebetter, hope you're feeling better soon.  radical, i love your description for the process for learning for children.   somehow i was expected to do things, to accomplish whatever task, but i think i set up an internal dialogue early on that allowed me to 'just do it' or not.  i don't exactly know why that happened, how that happened.  i put it all in the 'learning' column - if i made it, i learned from that.  if i didn't make it, i learned from that, and did something different.  it was all quite neutral to me.  but, then, i was so very out of touch with my feelings that any emotional weight was simply not allowed.   therefore, it wasn't a factor.

one last thing - i think both fear of failure and fear of success run along the same parallel.  either fear can cause sabotage of completing a task.  since i wasn't 'allowed' to be afraid, this type of thing didn't compute for me.  as i'm getting more in touch with my emotions, i'm surprised at how often i'm now afraid about things i've done for years.  weird how this all works.