Differently gendered dissociative parts suffering gender dysphoria?

[LaurelLeaves]

Some of what you wrote reminded me of this video that I had found just recently:
"The Drive for Authenticity: Understanding Inner Sexual Orientation and Gender Diversity"
It's a look from the Internal Family Systems perspective.
*possible triggers in the video, because he abruptly gives examples of homophobic and transphobic slurs at two points*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8M_gpbjTo

I watched this.  It was interesting that he said gender identity could be on normal distribution.  I'm really not sure about that. 

I think when people think about this they often get confused between boy-ness and masculinity, and girl-ness and femininity. They are not the same things.  As a person you can be as masculine or feminine as you want... it does not change whether you are a girl or a boy.   The masculine/feminine range is definitely on a normal distribution for both sexes.   But core gender identity is something different.... and so hard to describe.

[mourningdove]

Good point, LaurelLeaves. 

[LaurelLeaves]

well... I don't know if I'm helping anyone, or if I'm trying to hog space...  but maybe what I've learned about my gender-identity will help someone reading this thread, so here goes:

My gender-identity has different aspects.  One of them is just feeling that my body should be different.  So it's more like a body-type-identification than gender-identity.

Another facet is the immediate identification to the word "Man".   I feel this very intensely if anyone is being disparaging toward men.  I do not have the same immediate visceral reaction if someone is putting down woman... not to say that I don't think it's wrong... just saying I have different reactions to it.  One is an attack to MY person, and the other is an attack my friends.  You will feel the two attacks differently!

And another facet is one that is more complicated to explain.  It involves internalized gender roles.  We all know here at the forum that what happens to you when you are a young child stays with you.  When you are 2-3 yrs you are learning extremely quickly and it is molding your brain.  A good example would be learning a language.  You can not change my native language, even though I was not born with it.  In the same way, some of the things that you learned in those early years cannot be changed.   I thought I was a boy at those ages, so I only internalized "boy rules" and no "girl rules".   And those two rules are very different, and it changes us. 

The gender roles we internalized will have a lot to do with the sort of shame we have.    In this case my gender-identity does have to do with gender, but it doesn't mean that a man has to be masculine...  it just means that a man's internal reaction to being feminine would be different from a womans.  (I know a lot of whence I speak... I think being a gay man has something to do with it    )

So, anyway... I hope that helps someone... somewhere.  I'm just describing me.  Not all gender-dysphoric people will have all these facets.  Everyone's different. 



 

[mourningdove]

I found it very helpful to learn about your experience, LaurelLeaves! Thank you so much for sharing.

if I'm trying to hog space...

Not even close! You could take up wayyy more space here and still be in the clear as far as I'm concerned.

[mourningdove]

It's back. Omg, this hurts.

It's like being trapped in a Halloween costume that I can never take off, and everyone thinks that the costume is who i really am, and not only that, but they demand that the costume is who I really am. I feel both invisible and disfigured.

[TwinCinema]

I appreciate you sharing your experiences!
Dysphoria sounds very painful, and I'm sorry you've had to cope with that.

What you said about struggling with perceiving certain thought processes as "misguided protector parts" resonated with me.
Over the six years or so I've been active on social media like Tumblr, I've seen several male friends shift their preferred pronouns from he/him to they/them, she/her, or even less common ones like xe/xim.
Furthermore, my DFAB (designated female at birth) cousin came out as a bi man last year.

I haven't experienced any form of dysphoria, but whenever trans issues come up online or in the media, there have been little obtrusive thoughts in my mind that ask "maybe you're a girl?".
I don't connect with being female in any way, but that part of my mind suggests that maybe I'm just trying to hide my "true feelings", even though I don't see my mind as trying to repress any part of me.
If it was, I wouldn't have embraced being a gay man.
Dr. Jonice Webb, who's written about childhood emotional neglect, has said that identity disturbance can stem from that sort of background. I think my case stems from obsessive thoughts and not having confidence in my opinions growing up.

That being said, that's just my experiences.
Your identity is completely valid and I applaud your attempts to acknowledge it. 

[mourningdove]

Thank you so much for your support and sharing, TwinCinema! 

I want to say that my replies on this thread feel paltry next to the generous support that so many have offered. i am very sorry for that. It's only because this is so difficult for me to talk about.

[flookadelic]

Mourningdove - It can take so much time to come to an understanding of such depth as to explain it to ourselves and then others. I'm (mostly) "plainclothes trans" for want of a better word. My body is unmistakably male, my brain unmistakably female. After the exorcisms when I was 15 I became addicted to drink and drugs for a couple of decades. I always knew trans was me, but it had been pushed onto the back-burner whilst I numbed out from the pain. When that phase was over I simply got by on will-power and suppression alone. During this time I simply continued to lose my identity in a monumental effort to fit in, to have a career, to be a good husband etc etc. Of course, it all fell apart. Badly.

It was only after my breakdown that a chance remark from a friend jogged my mind and, through the dissociative haze, I regained my perspective. It was both liberating and another incredible loss, decades wasted in a space that was in no way me.

Dysphoria is painful, I know. But I had spent so many years dealing with monsters that dwarfed that pain. Now my mind is returning to more nuanced and reasoned perspectives (even though my trauma brain throws * at it every day) myself and my birth gender are feeling increasingly out of kilter. But that's science...it's a fact that some of us are born trans...I try to see myself as a whole and not divided. In part this is me giving the finger to my exorcism-happy father who thought I was some kind of mistake. I'm not. We're not! So I dress how I wish to express myself from time to time - am changing body shape to fit into my wardrobe and wear less of the wrong clothing and see how that goes. It may lead to increased feelings of dysphoria, it may not, I have no idea. But I do know there comes a time.

I'm sorry if this has little in the way of solutions or answers for you  but I would also like to applaud and thank you for your honesty and courage in bringing this up. I rarely talk about it because I know where I am with it - more or less - and am very fortunate in that regard. I hope you find the path through the wood that makes the most sense with the least pain. Much love, flooky

[LaurelLeaves]

In part this is me giving the finger to my exorcism-happy father who thought I was some kind of mistake. I'm not. We're not!

I'm so sorry that you had to put up with this *stuff*. You are right; we are not a mistake.

(I am not allowed to say what the *stuff* is.)

[flookadelic]

Hello LaurelLeaves - I can make a rough guess re *

And I quite agree!

[mourningdove]

I'm so sorry that you had to put up with this *stuff*. You are right; we are not a mistake.

This x 1000000000

Flookadelic, I am so sorry for what happened to you. It makes me so angry and sad that you were put through that.

I relate to a lot of what you wrote about your own experience, and I'm so glad that you are finally figuring out what truly works for you. It did help me to read your account. Thank you. 

I am still wrestling with how to understand what is going with me. My ability to maintain awareness of the reality of the gender dysphoric part has been growing stronger, and that part of me has been present more and more, and the dysphoria has been increasing. It has already been intense enough that I have come to understand why some people feel that death is the only solution for them when they can't be themselves.

I no longer think that my other parts were completely misguided for having hidden this from me for so long (or for continuing to try to hide it). i actually had a warm feeing inside when I realized that. They were trying to protect me and they were not wrong. The dysphoria can get so overwhelming. Still, I wonder how much of this was going on under the surface, beyond my awareness, all this time. I have been making a long list of small moments from my past during which it may have surfaced a little, only to be stuffed back in and made unconscious. Some could be the result of revisionism, but I can say for certain that not all are.

If I did not have significant problems with dissociation (I would say OSDD-1), I would consider myself trans at this point. But I'm not sure how to think about it all given the depth of my problems with dissociation. When the dysphoric part is prominent, I have a feeling of certainty about it all, but that certainty leaves when the part is hidden. And at such times, there is at least some feeling of "not me" when thinking about all this. It's very confusing and difficult to explain, but I'm trying my best.

To make it even more complicated, I was doing some mundane task last week, while the dysphoric part was very much out, and while its thoughts were about seeing a gender therapist, and I actually felt yet another part of me "wake up" (that's the best phrase I can think of for the experience - a coming to consciousness). This other part seemed to be experiencing the dysphoric part for the first time, and was disoriented by all the thoughts and plans about gender. I felt its reaction in my body and was a little dizzy and had a feeling of shock. But soon this passed and I was back to thinking about seeing a gender therapist. I told my T about this, and she used the word amnesia, which I felt was apt. She seemed to think the other part awakening was a good sign - one of integration. I hope so, but I really don't know.

I know this all probably sounds really crazy to some. Believe me, I know. I told my T that I'm scared that I'm delusional or something, but she said it all sounded like dissociation to her. Again, I'm hoping she is correct.

Sorry this is so long., It's really confusing, and I wish I could explain better. I'm actually surprised that i was able to share this much. I had better post before it gets erased. Thanks if you read all this.

[radical]

I'm becoming more aware of different sub personalities, or split off parts of myself.  I've avoided looking into this because it doesn't seem to fit the traditional models of dissociation according to the DID approach.

When you say another part of you "woke up"  would you mind telling me how that felt?

I'm wondering if the times I feel a kind of shattering, where I feel so confused that I don't understand anything and can barely think at all, is about disparate parts of myself coming together and causing a sense of chaos.

[mourningdove]

Gosh, the part waking up is very hard to explain. I was washing my hands, and so i was in one of those states where the body is kinda doing stuff automatically (because no thought really required to wash my hands), and I was thinking about all the fears and hopes I had about going to see a gender therapist. (At that moment, I was identifying strongly with the gender dysphoric part.)

Note: in the following, "we" is used to denote the body, the system, or mourningdove as a whole.

Without that line of thought ending, a second sense of self suddenly emerged, as if from sleep, and it had had no idea of the ongoing gender dysphoria, no idea that we had made a thread about it here, no idea that we had talked to our regular T about it, no idea that we are planning to see an actual gender therapist. So upon awakening, this part was privy to all the thoughts and feelings of the gender dysphoric part, and was quickly disoriented. Like, it couldn't believe all this was happening, and hadn't been aware of any of it. Physically, we felt dizzy, like the room was spinning, and it was something like a panic attack.

So my attention then shifted to wondering what was going on, and feeling afraid. I don't remember exactly what happened next, but I was soon at my journal writing down what had happened, and wondering what that newly awakened part was about and where it had been. I really have no idea. I have found that certain parts can go quiet when the gender dysphoric part is prominent, but I hadn't known that a part could be completely unaware like that for such a long length of time.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but I don't know how else to explain it.

I'm becoming more aware of different sub personalities, or split off parts of myself.  I've avoided looking into this because it doesn't seem to fit the traditional models of dissociation according to the DID approach.

I would be interested to hear more about this. What about your own experience doesn't fit with the models?

I'm wondering if the times I feel a kind of shattering, where I feel so confused that I don't understand anything and can barely think at all, is about disparate parts of myself coming together and causing a sense of chaos.

I may relate to this, though I'm not sure if I am just grafting my own experiences onto your description. I have many times had an experience in therapy where I just have too many different and often conflicting thoughts and emotions at the same time (from different parts). It gets overwhelming, and it makes it very hard to speak. I've described it as "my brain locking up," or as a traffic jam in my head. Like, I can't even describe what I am thinking or feeling in those instances, because there are many constantly shifting answers, and often it's even hard to make the mouth speak. I also experience this sometimes when I am trying to write something important about how I feel or what I think. (I'm actually surprised that I've been able to write so much about this stuff here. I don't know what's up with that.)

So is that anything like what you've experienced, radical, or is it different?

Thanks for reading. 

[mourningdove]

 

[radical]

Sorry Mourningdove,
I really appreciated your reply.  This is a difficult problem for me and one that ties in a bit to the problems I've been having with my therapist.

I don't think I can do justice to all of this right now.

I never experience being someone else, lose time, or wonder how I got somewhere etc.  I do experience being different aspects of myself and when I experience one 'aspect' I feel I don't have access to other parts.  The best analogy is if I were  'Microsoft Word'  I have access to some functions some of the time but very seldom all of the functions at any given time. I have had brief experiences of feeling that I was all of myself and could freely access all of the different types of feelings, memories etc.  It felt like what I've always wanted, like becoming real.  I wasn't even happy.   It's not just about function, it is that I usually don't notice but I'm being partial, a fraction rather than a whole. 

Sometimes I experience a kind of internal chaos in which I feel so confused I feel like I no longer understand anything.  This is usually when i have been experiencing split off anger/hostility.  If it is daytime I go for a walk.  I come out of it (god only knows how that actually happens because I'm too dissociated)  in a different place in which all of the anger is gone and the whole experience of that 'persona' feels unreal.  I'm usually only able to access anger when I'm alone.  I can talk about having been angry with others but ordinarily, I'm not able to be with anger with others.  If I do I become too angry and past angers get mixed up.  It's very threatening because I feel any kind of self defense or assertion (other than purely intellectual difference of opinion) threatens relationships.  When people behave badly, I usually start involuntarily fawning instead of asserting myself.  You can probably guess how disastrous that has been for relationships over my life.

This is more complicated but i find it hard to express.  Late 2015 a series of things led to me being in a state of burning rage inside myself.  I withdrew a lot because I was scared what I might do, but I didn't really 'do' anything.  I observed many everyday things that bothered me and felt a reflex to fawn, but because I actually felt the anger (because I was inside the anger all the time) I didn't.  I usually didn't do anything, but I didn't fawn. A couple of times I felt angry and didn't know what to do so I walked out of the room, I didn't storm out, just walked away.    I don't know how much, if any, of this anger showed through to anyone else as anything more than withdrawn and a bit odd, but i felt completely different, I didn't feel I recognised myself and felt that I was going through the motions quite disconnected from what was going on inside.  There were a few times when I became snappy when I was stressed beyond my ability to cope.  Mostly, i struggled to contain the burning, along with the awareness and memories that go with that state.  It just wouldn't leave me alone.

It led to making a whole lot of radical decisions and changes.  I guess I was in an adrenalised state, a kind of survival mode.  I ended toxic long term relationships, finally left the project and another group in which I was being bullied, reported the abuse, demanded my money back, fought and got it.  There were times I was energised into positive actions. I kind of missed the abilities and strength I had experienced when the state left me.

That was an extreme example probably brought on by circumstances accumulating.  A couple of weeks ago I had a quite traumatic medical experience, and afterwards I felt good, but really young, teen-aged.  I felt self-conscious, like a teenager, but quite happy.  This was superimposed over a middle aged woman walking down the main street.  I felt like I'd suddenly woken up.  It was so unbelievably strange.  I kept wondering where i had been and what the * I'd been doing, but I knew where and who I was, but it was like the person I was, found herself transported in time and suddenly awake in her own life many years ahead.  There was the sense of one person superimposed over another.

I don't know if anyone can relate to any of this.  I'd like to describe a few occasions of becoming 'integrated'.  but this is probably enough.