Offensive Language Guideline

[Kizzie]

I mentioned about a week or so ago that we could revisit the guideline about offensive language which currently reads as follows:

Do not use offensive and/or vulgar language. Swearing is not permitted at OOTS because many of our members were traumatized by abuse which involved aggressive, threatening and/or demeaning language.  Please be considerate and use a symbol mash (e.g., %^&$) instead. A filter has been added to replace offensive words with an *. However, if a word slips by please report the post and it will be edited accordingly.   If words are used that have negative connotations (e.g.,  "tits" versus "breasts") or are derogatory in some fashion, a moderator may edit your post.

We ran into a problem recently with the use of letters in the symbol mash (e.g., f**k) which isn't covered in the guideline explicitly.  In the follow-on conversation about amending the guideline to be more explicit, some members wondered about the need for any guideline/filter. 

So, I am opening this up for input/feedback ....   I do have some thoughts on this but don't want to sway things so will add my two cents later once those who want to weigh in have posted ( a week or two?). 

[Three Roses]

I guess I'm okay with whatever the majority wants.

[radical]

Hi Kizzie,
Apart from a couple of words, (the usual) I'm not offended by swearing, in fact I don't even notice it unless some letters are replaced by stars etc.  I'm used to moderating my natural speech, which includes swear words, in different contexts.  Sometimes, when I'm feeling something intensely, it feels satisfying to use some swear words to express the strength of my feelings, but  I don't need to.
I've been surprised occasionally to have found a star in place of a word that I hadn't realised I'd used.  I did find a blanket rule about all swear words on a site which caters to adults pretty repressive at first, but felt that if such words trigger others, or make them feel uncomfortable here, the rule is appropriate, imo.

I wouldn't like to see personal put-downs, hostility or name- calling whether it involved swearing or not.

[sanmagic7]

i usually swear for emphasis in my everyday language, but if people have a problem with it, i'm ok with that.  since this happened, i've cleaned up my act, because that's what i told the moderator i'd do.  still, i've seen swearing in other posts since.

swearing doesn't offend me, and often feels more 'true'.  i'm not a fan of vulgarity, denigration, name-calling (unless it's in a quoted conversation from outside this forum, in which case it's simply a quote) or threats.  those, to me, are much more upsetting than swear words. 

i was raised with no swearing, no religious references, and not even 'shut up'.  i found my own language usage after i moved out of my parents' house, and have picked and chosen from there.  as i'd said before, all the words that have caused me emotional harm are allowed on this forum already. 

i think, tho, that if there are solid guidelines in place, it's important that there is consistency with them being enforced.  part of the problem with me was just that - i was following what i saw posted, and even since this all happened i've seen swearing in posts, without editing, which has really left me confused.  i definitely believe i was singled out for reasons that went beyond my language usage.  this was not a good experience for me on many levels.

[movementforthebetter]

Everyone knows my opinion on swearing by now. I do it, I'm not ofended by it, and I think it's an important colour of the full palate of the English language. That said, I can not do it if that is decided to be the rule. I feel the same about slang in general... But context is everything.

How do we decide what words are offensive?

I would propose "no abusive language, including global generalizations, derogatory terms, racist, abelist, homophobic, transphobic, mysoginistic, or directed verbal attacks"... Something like that.

What do others think... Did I miss anything?

[Kizzie]

I'm not opposed to swearing myself, but I am cautious about it in an online forum like this because of our shared history of trauma and abuse. It is or can be triggering and offensive for members no matter how it is used, even somewhat benignly as emphasis or to express anger (versus directing it at someone).

I  do still think the symbol mash is the best answer for swearing in that the mind does not automatically fill in a word as it tends to when letters are used in conjunction with symbols (*&^% versus f**k).  I could be wrong but to my mind there is much less emotional impact for readers in the former rather than the latter case. 

The other thing about swearing is that in my experience it seems to be something that catches on in online forums, when one person does it others tend to pick up on it and it spreads.

Thus, my vote would be to have a guideline but to edit it so that it is clearer and does include offensive language in general.  For example, I like MFTB's idea of including more in the guideline about demeaning/abusive language perhaps with specific examples (racist, sexist, etc). 

Finally, WRT moderation, I agree totally that it must be even handed and consistent which is why imo some clarification is required.

There will always be shades of gray when it comes to what is offensive, we can't cover every possibility, but hopefully we can put something in place that makes this as safe and respectful an environment as possible for the majority of members. 

[Sandstone]

Thank you Kizzie for making things clear.
I apologise for a post in which i swore and angered. I genuinely thought it was the right place to do such a thing as long as i put a TW.
Anyway iv learnt my lesson as i seem to have been shunned since.
I didnt mean to upset anybody,  that was the last thing id have wanted to do.
Im a terrible swearer irl but i will not do it here again.

[Wife#2]

I am neither offended nor innocent in the matter of 'foul' language. I have posted while angry and that may have indeed caused concern to others. I found that this situation had arisen AFTER making a post in which I had 'bypassed' the filter while still being clear about what words I was modifying.

However, by the very nature of this website, we sometimes feel compelled to relay what happened to us in detail. This can be, and many times likely is, disturbing to readers for various reasons. I though this was the purpose of the Trigger Alert - to warn those who may take offense or worse, be triggered, to look away or proceed with caution.

I think many of us who are not easily offended by the smattering of 'foul' or 'curse' words here or there are not going to be prone to reporting when we see them. However, if I am reported for the greater-than-a-few words I've got still appearing in several older posts, I will not be upset about the reporting. You do have to have rules and set some kinds of standards for the protection of those in our community who are still raw and hurting.

I do know that, since the events, I have made every effort to make my posts fall within guidelines. No matter what, with rules in place and moderators dedicated to their positions, issues will still arise and people will still be upset by things that don't upset others.

This is silly and just came to me, but.... What if we had a place we could go called the dumping ground? It could be a place where we went only to offload some of the anger, bull, stress or hurt in all the worst that is clogging up our hearts & heads. It would be understood that all language barriers were relaxed there - it could be our on-line 'primal scream' room. I know I would probably use it when I'm frustrated and deeply emotional.

Maybe it would be better NOT to have that around now that I've had a second thought on the subject, though. Some of those things might be better suited to a personal off-line journal or a therapist's appointment.

Either way, thank you, Kizzie. You're work in keeping this a helpful, cohesive community is sincerely appreciated!

[Kizzie]

Not worry Sandstone, the whole issue did not arise because of any one person honestly - no-one need feel badly or blamed, that's not what we're trying to do by talking about this.  We just need to sort out what we think is in the best interests of the overall community.   

Wife#2,  I've seen sub-forums like what you're suggesting.  It is made clear that it is a place where members go to offload, to get that release that swearing and unfettered angering can bring without triggering anyone who stumbles into it in a post. One problem is that in order to have this kind of sub-forum I would need to turn off the current language filters for the whole board.  I do swear a lot at home when I am deeply frustrated or angry too, not at anyone but as a form of release so I know it could be helpful to be able to have a place to do so online.  Thoughts anyone?

 

[Three Roses]

Maybe as wife #2 suggested, a sub board where people can swear and/or circumvent the filter with things like using symbols for vowels, etc., and where people are forewarned before they enter that it's a place for venting, etc. That way you don't have to turn off the filters for the entire forum but people would still be able to type things like d1ck or @ss and not get a black mark on their permanent record. 

[woodsgnome]

I suspect I may be sort of an outlier here, or at least have a slightly different take on foul language and its connections with abuse and what constitutes triggering words.

I guess the first thing I'll share is I was trapped in many layers of physical, emotional and sexual abuse while within the clutches of 13 years of religious schooling and bad parenting. Interestingly, I don't recall any overt swearing by any of the abusers (although the father came up with some wonderful alternatives) . I don't give them much credit for their 'niceties', though. It was all woven into their utter hypocrisy in everything else. Actually, had they sworn even a little, It might have even altered my opinion of them from non-human monsters to only sub-human.  In retrospect, it almost seems worse not to have had rotten language in the mix; might even have made them seem less hypocritical.

Consequently, the sort of language that can set me off to sure trigger-land are simple things many wouldn't identify as offensive. I can easily be brought to at least near-trigger territory by religious words, as I came to associate them with those used by the abusers. A simple word like love, especially when paired with a deity's name, was totally twisted by how they contradicted everything they said it meant.

I know, I'm adult now, right? True enough, but even the most innocent 'holy' words can be cringe-worthy triggers and can unleash very painful emotions. And only a few people seem to grasp  how I came to be that way--I find myself ducking/dissociating often when I hear such talk around me. It actually took me decades to learn not to distrust all religious language, as it would raise the discomfort level and exacerbate side effects like shortness of breath, droopy posture, low to no self-respect, etc.  So while what's called foul language can roll right by me, some of the more accepted religious words can drag my spirits down.

As to language on this forum, I do think it would be a bit over the top if resorted to regularly; yet I understand that sometimes certain words can pop in, and integrity can likewise be lost by carefully having to tiptoe around. I live in an area where I hear some very salty language bandied about. By the same token, it does bother me when conversations can't pass without them. Another example--I love comedy skits; used to perform them myself. But when they seem to have to be laced with every epithet included (unless creatively crafted), it comes off as phony, contrived, and can greatly demean the speaker's effect.

I've never seen 'the words' as an overt problem on this forum. Mostly the members work it out themselves, and sure some of the language can get rough, but I've never noticed a huge outbreak either. And yes, not everyone has shed their sensitivities to certain ways of speaking. Seems like there's a finer sensitivity to that, though, which most posters here have been attuned to.

But yes, a guideline still seems worthwhile. Hopefully the word 'civility' will always be uppermost, but not in a phony way either. The most civil exchanges can indeed be laced with anger--lots of it in some instances. I've had a few pretty strenuous rants here myself. While I hear many of those supposed nasty words rattle around my mind space, knowing that and needing to emphasize them, especially in written form, is another matter.

With regards to 'trigger warnings', one problem I've felt is that some of us have different triggers, as with my religious example above. Many would never consider a simple saying like "the love of god" to be a trigger; but I know of someone who might twinge at hearing it--me. What lurks behind those words I'm still 'angering' out of my system, as it were. I can think of umpteen epithets I'd love to hurl in response to my abusive history. I suppose even that, though, could merit a trigger warning just for the suggestion. And we all do talk to ourselves, constantly; epithets included, even if we don't like them, or are reminded of episodes that leave us wallowing in self-pity or boiling over with rage.

Thorny dilemma, to say the least.

[tea-the-artist]

I'm not triggered by swearing, but I do think some sort of filtering would be beneficial to helping the community as a whole feel safe. I don't know if it's possible to have an option in our profile/account settings to check or uncheck to have any offensive language filtered out. I'd assume that folks who are triggered by swearing or any sort of offensive language would decide to check that option to have it filtered out. IRL I swear slightly regularly, but after joining, I've made an effort not to do so here (I don't recall swearing in any of my posts, but I've been having fluctuating memory problems so I hope not!)

I think I remember reading a conversation about the possibility (or fact?) that someone could also be triggered by suppression, so having to choose carefully over words while posting could feel like tone policing (something I'm sure many if not all of us are familiar with).

Just a thought, though I really feel like having the option to turn on/off filtering offensive/triggering language would be really important. Perhaps even having something to fill out (like a blacklist maybe?) that would filter out things that maybe not other people find triggering or offensive. Maybe, say I click to read a thread about something that might be triggering, I'll be taken to a Warning! page that might say:

Warning! The thread you are about to visit may be triggering to you based on the list of triggers you provided.
(click to show your filtered triggers)

Leave Page | Proceed With Caution

Something like that. The clicking part would just show what triggers you decided to provide under your account settings. They don't have to be visible to other members/visitors but sometimes that could help?

I know it's important to protect and keep all safe as a whole, but I guess the thing is we're all very different and complex, so I feel like something like that would just be a bit more beneficial since if it's possible, it'd be able to cater to everyone who needs trigger warnings (and this wouldn't just go for offensive language, but of course would include it).

Though.. now that I think about it, this suggestion might just sound like there wouldn't be a need for the offensive language guideline. It was just a thought/suggestion, but I guess I feel like a strong/developed filter should be put in place that would essentially do a good amount of the work for us. Maybe I'm a bit naive and too young or something but I just feel that would be so handy. Even if a separate sub-board is created. I hope this makes sense at all!

[Kizzie]

So we're having a healthy, respectful discussion about something that caused some conflict - nice change from the environment we grew up in isn't it!?   This is what recovery is all about so first off     and     and    to us!

Tks Woodsgnome and Tea for also weighing in. Tea I wish members could have individual language filters, that would allow members to screen out language that offends or triggers them such as Woodsgnome's reaction to language associated with religion.  Unfortunately, this platform doesn't have the capacity to do so.    

I did look into having a rant sub-forum a bit more. It was at Out of the FOG and did not go well as the Site Manager's post about removing it talks about below.

The idea of a venting board was actually tried about 10 years ago at the previous incarnation of OOTF which was called "The Nook". The new board was called "Ranting and Raving". It only lasted about a month though before it was shut down because the moderators found that the amount of anger being expressed on all the boards - not just the "Ranting and Raving" board - suddenly started to rise exponentially creating a ton of extra work for the moderators to try to contain it.

We've got a section of our posting guidelines called "Dealing with anger" that has rules about what is OK to say/not say here for a similar reason - it's amazing how quickly a thread changes tone after a poster calls their significant other a jackass.  If the mods don't catch it within a couple of hours there will be half a dozen other posters using even less attractive terms in the same thread and within a day or two there will be multiple threads peppered with name calling. It quickly becomes a slippery slope and a huge job for the mods who have to decide "if we allowed Joe to say this don't we have to allow Jane to say that?"  It's far easier just to say "no name-calling"

There's also been quite a bit of psychological research done over the past few years on the subject of whether venting anger is a good or a bad idea which is really interesting. Most of the research says that expressing anger feels good at the time and gives you a catharsis but - sigh - it also gently lowers the threshold for feeling angry next time - a bit like the way a beaten path slowly forms in the grass after you walk over it enough times - eventually that path becomes "the way".

Turns out our brains work the same way - developing new connections every time we choose to think, speak or act in a certain way in response to a situation. Each time I vent - even in a safe place like this - I reinforce the habit and increase the likelihood I will feel angry and potentially vent in a not-so-safe place later. The path forms a whole lot faster if lots of people walk on it with you - hence a board called "venting" becomes a catalyst for anger - that probably explains why the "Ranting and Raving" board became a problem so quickly.

On the other hand, research also shows there is a ton of good in accurately describing a situation you are in and how that makes you feel and combining that with talk about healthy, constructive choices you can make in response to a situation that initially makes you feel angry. Talking or writing about what you feel and connecting it to healthy responses takes more mental effort - a bit like trying to start a new beaten path in the long grass at first. If you do it enough times eventually there's a new path where you want to go and like magic the grass starts to grow over the old venting path. Eventually it's just easier not to vent.

So please do use our board to describe how you feel - that's what we're here for - and describe what has happened to you - that's reality. And also talk about healthy responses to unhealthy situations - that's the magic.

So as OOTF experienced there is a tendency for posts which allow name calling/swearing/rants to catch and then spread throughout the board, not something we want I don't think.  I like his suggestions about expressing anger but in a healthier way (i.e., describe feelings but also look for ways of moving out of the anger), so I will see if I can edit the offensive language guideline to reflect this and what we've talked about in this thread thus far, and then will post it here for feedback.  In the meantime, if you have any more feedback about the issue plse do weigh in here or send me a PM.

[woodsgnome]

I just want to clarify something I wrote earlier that might have been misunderstood. By touching on my reaction to certain religious terms that can trigger me, I wasn't suggesting that such references could or should ever be screened in any way. I was just reporting my reactions as an example of how some might have unique personal triggers that others don't; and which can't be realistically screened. I hardly expect people, even if they knew of my history, to ever totally filter what they say around me because of that. It's my responsibility to find a personal safe zone with what can come up.

I don't/can't avoid religion per se; am actually fascinated by parts of it, and have read oodles of materials on all aspects of it (more than many religious people); but most of it's just too painful for me to want to personally revisit. Horrible as my experience was, it did improve my 'hypocrisy detector' dramatically, a 'silver lining' of sorts, I suppose; not worth the abuse to get it, but it's still cool to have an ability to scrutinize the loudmouths (see, it's hard to not have a rant break out when religion comes into my view). 

Avoidance isn't the issue I have, but knowing and enhancing my own skills in dealing with some words I hear, as if I'm not careful they can trigger awful emotions from childhood associations with the words used. I've come to better understand my boundaries and go from there, and found I can even become comfortable with some folks I know that have found their religion to have had positive effects for them. Compared to many, I hold what some call spiritual values (derived from within) but not religious leanings (externally enforced via doctrines, rules, etc). So yes, religious terms can present me with major triggering reactions, but I realize that's the case and am working with stabilizing my emotional security accordingly. Reality is I can't fully escape those triggers anyway.

Regarding the outright swear words issue, as I said earlier I really didn't sense that it was a huge problem, that the the filters in place were alright if not foolproof, and that those burned when seeing the words were protected at least to a degree. Again, there doesn't seem to be a perfect way short of full-scale censorship, and it's already been touched on how that can do more harm than good in stifling one's emotional overwhelm, which is what so many here are already sifting through as is.

As someone who's had lifelong difficulty standing up for myself, expressing emotions as strongly as I can is critically important in working through the recovery process. So I value full vents, as it were; but also realize that venting can hurt if certain language gets over the top. Tweaking the guidelines, then, seems better than an extreme overhaul. Not perfect (speaking of trigger-words!--e.g. 'be perfect, now'), but more workable than draconian bans on expressing strong emotions.

[Kizzie]

No problem Woodsgnome I did get that. By the way, religion never played much of a part in my life or the development of my CPTSD, but like you I have a well tuned hypocrisy (or &^%*) detector that goes off a lot when religion enters the mix. I often have the same reaction to politicians 

Anyway, just wanted to post that I haven't forgotten about editing the guideline I have just had a busy week of writing a lot for my job and don't quite feel like tackling it yet.  But I will