Forgiveness?

[2Spirits]

I tried a guided meditation i found on youtube - "Healing father wounds". I listened to it a first time without really wanting to go deep, so i knew all the steps that were in it and would not have unpleasant surprises during meditation. It was like this: finding a beautiful spot, sitting at a bench, meeting my father sitting at an opposite bench, looking at him, forgiving him that he could not give what he didn't have, taking the responsibility for my life and telling him he no longer was/is responsible, listening if he had something to say to me, saying something to him if i felt like it, letting go of anything i want to let go and then saying goodbye.

Well, i wasn't sure of saying i forgive; I mean: I am not sure if i can say it in a way that i really mean it, but i wanted to give it a try and see what happens. Well, when i came to the part with saying something like "I forgive you for being human and having human shortcomings" I had really violent pictures in my head of beating him and really hurting him until only his ghost remained. I realized it while it happened and thought of stopping the meditation because it was propably not intended this way, but i decided to stay with my momentary inner truth and not to change my actions, thoughts or pictures, because i wanted to respect the inner part that had this livid experience and i found it ok because it was only a meditation and not real violence.

It is quite seldom that i allow myself to be aggressive, I always feel as if aggression was a bad thing and that i cannot gain something positive from being aggressive. Most times, when i become aggressive, i dissociate and become anxious. I was quite surprised about myself later when it was over. But i felt ok, more alive, more joyful even. Certainly not what i had expected from doing this meditation, and certainly not very forgiving. I'm still not sure what to think of it. So I just write it down here in this forum.

And i am curious: what are your experiences with forgiveness and the process of forgiving, how did you start and what happened?

[woodsgnome]

This is dangerous territory for me, but I'll try not to resort to harsh rant, per my tendencies; and/or try not to be wordy, also a novelty given my fear (perfectionism in action) of being misunderstood.

I know exactly what you mean with the recorded meditations...and then you get to the instruction...imagine a peaceful scene from your childhood...which quickly are crowded out by the mostly awful scenes I tried so hard to escape from then, and in memory...now.

Okay. So someone will scold me, surely--I'm not doing the meditation right if that happens. Well, excuse me; I'm just saying what happens, not if I should add that to my list of guilt feelings.

One of the bigger guilt trips these days is the cult of 'you must, at all costs, forgive at all times'. Look for me to fail that test, too; but I feel less guilty about it. Forgiveness is performance anxiety run amok. So often it seems forced, as if it's just an ordinary social norm to want to forgive. Usually the ones suggesting it just has to happen in the form of socially accepted forgiveness are the experts. I recall one psychiatrist I heard on the radio hinting that if you didn't forgive (at least in the form he preferred) well, you're just not human, then. 

I'm not saying don't forgive; more along the lines of be honest about your intentions, depending on how and why you even understand the word. To me, the word itself first brings up scenes from childhood abusers wearing religious garb while they proceeded to do anything but forgive even imagined slights. How am I supposed to turn around and be gleeful at the prospect of forgiveness. Whose type? What am I missing--dignity and self-respect?

So okay, I'll also admit to feeling better about not getting stuck 'back there', as well. So what to do, without falling into the forgiveness 'have to' norm? First thing is realize I'm not in that movie anymore...I'm working on my new script that points ahead, not a return to *. Forgiveness, the very word, puts me back there. I have tried, a lot, to get over my unease over a simple word...but the old movie left an almost indelible imprint, and the forgiveness, as it's commonly understood, eludes me whenever I try.

I still know there's always someone who will 'should' me (usually a person who didn't experience that sort of abuse). One person even lays on the guilt by calling my resistance to use the word forgive as a form of what she calls 'woundology'; implying, I guess, that I must like the hurt.

Gotta end this...which is to say, I may not use the term forgiveness but I also don't think I have to. My alternative is to accept that some things happened, for whatever senseless reason I can't understand. I can know for sure that I'm not there anymore, nor are the other people involved. That gives me peace, now--in this instant, that the movie has ended. And yes, maybe/maybe not I can discern causes, figure that some people were off the rails, but bottom line is they're not here now either. Even if they were, would it truly require the full forgiveness schtick to make peace? Won't acceptance work and then go from there?

I don't know any answers, except--I get a little fired up just at the word, but thanks for letting me share the feeling.

And maybe just to, sadly, note that even a guided meditation can twist from its given intention sometimes--the speaker doesn't know all the ins/outs of what's affected the listener. And that's not a fault, just an observation; it's nobody's fault--and voila! perhaps in that sense I've just practiced an act of what is often called forgiveness? Or acceptance?...and then it goes on...?

So forgive if one feels they must. But give me some slack even if my form doesn't use the word. 

[Three Roses]

Forgiveness to me just means that I've released them from any debt I ever felt they owed me, any rights I may have had for retribution, any blame for wrong turns I've taken because of the damage done to me. I recognize their humanity, and the fact that their actions toward me were because of the damage they themselves had experienced.

What it doesn't mean: that I've declared everything is fine, was fine, will be fine; that I want to have a relationship with them; that I'm not still affected by their abuse.

I feel that if I want forgiveness for the harm I've done - and I have - that I must extend it, too.

Easier said than done though. And maybe I'll always be working on it, and that's okay with me, too.

[sanmagic7]

the idea of forgiveness has dogged me for quite a while.  i was very involved in our church for a time, very involved in 12-step meetings, very involved with other recovering people and for the most part they were all very pro-forgiveness.  most of them told me that if i didn't forgive someone, it just meant i continued to 'carry' that person in my mind.

i once had a discussion about this with a pastor's wife.  i told her that when jesus was on the cross, he said 'father, forgive them, etc.'.  he didn't say 'i forgive you'.  that has always stuck in my mind - the idea that i could also turn the forgiveness part of this mess over to someone/something else if i didn't feel right with doing it myself.

and, that's what i've become most comfortable with - if someone else wants to forgive people for what they did to me, have at it.  it's out of my hands, taken care of, and i can move on.  and i don't worry or think about it anymore. 

i can also go with the notion of acceptance - i can accept what happened, learn from it, and move on.  and i believe all of this for what i may have done to others - if there's someone or something out there who wants to forgive me, fine.  if not, fine.  i'll never know, so it doesn't affect my life or how i think about myself.  i am a very spiritual person, but i recognize that some things are beyond me, and i can allow that and live with it. 

it sounds to me (off the subj. of forgiveness) like you still have quite a bit of anger inside toward your dad.  i don't know how forgiveness could truly be a viable choice until that anger is cleared up.  but, the fact that you felt better for having that mental picture, even tho it was very aggressive, seems like it was a positive step forward.  i'm really glad you let yourself just be with it.  i'm not normally aggressive, either, but my bed has taken a beating more than once while i've been working on anger towards someone! 

kudos to you for your courage to follow that meditation through without stopping it.  it sounds like you were being honest and truthful with yourself.  i don't know how that could ever be a bad thing.  onward!

[woodsgnome]

One tiny addendum to my earlier rant.

Some of my chief abusers way back when were religious folk who liked to use the word forgive whenever and wherever. 

And...the rest of the time, all they could spit out was how right they always were, and how wrong everyone else was. When it was pointed out, the only thing they were truly forgiving was the ignorance of those who didn't see it their way.

Huh?  Forgiveness has confused me ever since.

[2Spirits]

Thank you for your responses! It's good to hear that others are struggling with forgiving, too.

it sounds to me (off the subj. of forgiveness) like you still have quite a bit of anger inside toward your dad.  i don't know how forgiveness could truly be a viable choice until that anger is cleared up.

I think you are quite right - with so much anger inside, i do not really forgive. Well, trying to speak the words and meaning them has shown me how much hurt and anger is there, and i could even allow myself being angry. So even if it doesn't meet the orignial intention of the meditation, it has helped me and was good for me; I'm glad I tried.

I repeated the whole meditation twice today, and i still get mad and it still is okay for me. Something interesting happened: there is a part in the meditation where i am instructed to just look at my father and notice how he looks - dress, face, expression etc. I find that when repeating the meditation i become increasingly capable of looking at him. I still get mad, or reproachful, or violent, but i am able to look at him. Which is very empowering for me. Strange, all of this.

I try to understand what's happening. Not being overwhelmed by old pain, but becoming able to feel it and address it and speak about it is a good thing. The first time was quite overwhelming.

[...]

I still know there's always someone who will 'should' me (usually a person who didn't experience that sort of abuse). One person even lays on the guilt by calling my resistance to use the word forgive as a form of what she calls 'woundology'; implying, I guess, that I must like the hurt.
[...]
And maybe just to, sadly, note that even a guided meditation can twist from its given intention sometimes--the speaker doesn't know all the ins/outs of what's affected the listener. And that's not a fault, just an observation; it's nobody's fault--and voila! perhaps in that sense I've just practiced an act of what is often called forgiveness? Or acceptance?...and then it goes on...?

Feel free to rant and be my guest! It's heartwarming to hear you! So good to hear that the very word "forgiveness" is used as pressure and "should" and that it is a part of freedom and respect for myself not to "should" but to wait if and when i really want to forgive. And i don't have to...

It's so good not being alone with this whole uncertainty - what do i feel, what should i feel, am i allowed to feel this or that, is it good for me, blah bleh. I'm happy to be a bit okay with me feeling what i feel and appreciate very much the possibility to rant here. Thank you! 

[Dee]

I almost didn't read this thread because the subject was forgiveness, if that says anything.  For me I am not ready to even consider it.  I know I have yet to turn my anger outward and right now the only person I desire to forgive is myself.

So I went to another group and probably my last time.  There was talk of forgiveness from one person and she said that she forgives, she knows those who hurt her are human, she has compassion, and knows that they went through something.  So she forgives.  My thought was forget that, I don't care what happened to them, there is no excuse.  I went through something and I never hurt my children.  I too am so sick of hearing from just about every possible outlet that a person must forgive.  I think perhaps there is a way to release without forgiveness, I don't know. I understand forgiveness conceptualized as more of understanding, but I don't care about that either.   

Maybe someday I will feel differently, but no time soon.

[Three Roses]

I've been thinking about this thread, a lot.

I've come to the conclusion I feel disconnected from the pain of my past. I know there's anger - at least, I'm told there must be - under the surface that needs to be dealt with. But I just can't grab hold of it long enough to wrestle with it.

I'm hoping that comes soon. I've been trying on my own and it's not happening, so maybe a new therapist will help.

[Dee]

I turn all my anger inwards.  I have trouble feeling it at anyone but me.  I know I do feel it towards others, but i think it is too scary to process and feel.  I express anger in a host of negative coping skills.  Each time I think I've gone to far, I find something else.

[radical]

I don't think there is any necessity to forgive. I also think some things are unforgivable.

Plus, what do we mean by 'forgive' when people who have done so much harm have never truly admitted doing harm or tried to make amends? If it is about getting past anger in ourselves, surely we have to go through it first.  There are things I've forgiven, but according to my own feelings and time-line, not to make other people more comfortable, and assist with their denial.

Demands for forgiveness just sound like "shut up" to me.

[Three Roses]

Well said, radical!

This is an awesome, thought provoking thread. Thanks for starting it, 2Spirits.

[Eyessoblue]

I totally agree with Dee, in my life I don't see how I could even contemplate in "forgiveness " there is just no way!  I also have been lucky enough to have 2 children and brought them up to be safe and happy with as much love as I could possibly give them, i cannot accept yet, the life I was given by my so called 'family ' which have left me with many issues today that I still can't see the light at the end of the tunnel with.  I firstly need to start trying to love myself which feels impossible and then hope that one day my life will start to be straight forward and 'normal ' , but forgiveness will never come into this.

[papillon]

Oh forgiveness... what a loaded topic!

Since religion has already been mentioned I want to try to offer the Christian/biblical teaching on forgiveness without the manipulations of a 12 step program or abusive leader. Please don't read this as me being preachy, I just want to represent something that gets so often distorted.

A lot of well meaning people in the church with an entirely wrong understanding of forgiveness have done A LOT of harm to hurting people by pushing forgiveness at all costs. Then there are those who would use your faith against you and tell you to forgive as a way to not take responsibility for their own reprehensible behavior. Neither of these things are ok!!! And when we are able, we should stand up for true forgiveness and not accept these counterfeits.

It can be helpful to think of forgiveness in "legal" terms.

There have to be 2 parties involved. I can't forgive someone from the peace of my own bedroom... forgiveness requires both parties.

Forgiveness also requires repentance (an apology, acknowledging that wrong has been done and trust has been broken, with a sincere intent to turn away from the offending behavior). 

Forgiveness then says that you will not pursue the matter further: not seeking to punish or hold it over their head as leverage. The matter is openly acknowledged (none of this forgive & forget nonsense!!) and you both move on from that point.

Forgiveness acknowledges that there was damage caused to one party and that the offended party has reason to be hurt. Any continued relationship after forgiveness can be quite boundaried! The offending party now has the opportunity to prove their trustworthiness and the sincerity of their repentance from a safe distance. The offended party controls when boundaries are relaxed. 

What was so remarkable about Christ was that in the cross he represents both the offended party and the offender. His sacrifice is what allows us un-boundaried access to God.

I can't forgive my abusers because they haven't acknowledged wrongdoing.

What I can do is choose to be open to the possibility of future (boundaried) reconciliation. Not hardening myself to the point that if they ever offer true repentance I'm unable to respond.

I think that a lot of people mean acceptance when they say forgiveness. I can accept that what happened actually happened and that it's in the past. And I can choose to work on the resulting issues from the harm that occurred in the past: addressing my anger, shame, emotions, etc. and seeking to live a healthier, happier life moving forward.

Hope this perspective on forgiveness is helpful to someone!

A great expounding of the topic from a Christian worldview can be found in the book:

From Forgiven to Forgiving: Learning to Forgive One Another God's Way by Jay E Adams

Another book that helped me understand forgiveness and boundaries is:

Bold Love by Dan Allender and Tremper Longman

[Nicole13130]

Ok. I'm going to take a crack at this and try to share what I'm learning(emphasize learning) about forgiveness. Sorry if this gets long.

When we are kids we learn forgiveness from our parents/teachers/etc  You hear a sorry and you forgive as an automatic response even if we are still angry, hurt, etc. We have to just suppress that because you hear a sorry and are to "get over it". I think that screws us all up as we grow up. We never learn that forgiveness is a process and the sorry has really nothing to do with it.

Fast forward to adult and now I'm in a situation where someone violated me on the deepest levels of being human and that trauma has completely altered who I am, how my brain works and how I associate with others. This person is never going to say sorry. They are incapable of feeling guilt, compassion, empathy needed to apologize. My brain can't comprehend forgiveness other than what I know in childhood. Well that really screws me up. I spend hours and hours reliving what happened to me. To try to cope, I try to understand why it happened to me. I still can't forgive. My brain can't comprehend saying it was okay that someone f****d me up this bad. That's what forgiveness is right? You hurt me but that's okay, right? It is a completely crushing picture that squashes out everything good. It dictates my entire life and I don't know how to make myself feel better. I'm helpless. My abuser now controls my life without more than his initial effort.

Then I hear forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. What a load of crock, I think. Still can't comprehend what forgiveness is. Then I pick up this book, "The Book of Forgiving". Suddenly I start to see another perspective of forgiveness that I did not understand and that was really empowering. I'm no expert, but I'm starting to pick up points that start to give me hope that forward is a direction.

Forgiveness gives you the power to cut the connection to your abuse/trauma and the people who inflicted it. Forgiveness is partially about acceptance of what happened. Acceptance does not mean you are okay with it. It simply means that you understand that you cannot change that it did. The who, what, where, when, why that I was replaying would not change that it happened. Tell your story as much as needed to get to this place.

Then comes the hard work. Another aspect of forgiveness is digging into the hurt left over from the trauma. What are you feeling? All of it. Anger, shame, sadness, confusion, helplessness, etc. Feel it. Acknowledge it. Understand it and how it affects who you are and your life. Shame is such a big one for me. I realized that I hold on to what he did to me, because I hate what it made me. I hated me essentially. I should have stopped it. If I had done something different. I don't respect who I am now. That is a dangerous feeling when it festers unchecked.

Eventually you hit a point that, I think I'm kind of understanding as you feel as though you can move forward without the story and the pain dictating your life. I'm not saying that you will be who you were and everything will be forgotten. It's more like finding peace with yourself and what happened.This is forgiveness, I think. Rather than suppressing or pushing aside, pains by hearing a sorry, it is instead working through a situation to the point that you are ready to let it be. It does not exonerate the perpetrator. I think they mean very little in it. It is a process meant completely for YOUR healing and your empowerment. It does not happen fast and you may have to revisit steps multiple times until you are comfortable to move forward.

Then when you reach that point, you get to decide how to proceed. You can renew the relationship or release it. If it isn't good for you, you can let it go. You have that power. You don't have to ever have any connection to that person/people ever again. If you choose to renew, it doesn't mean you have to be close and loving. You acknowledge who the person really is and you can set boundaries and dictate the kind of terms that will keep you healthy and moving forward.

The book also addressed two other types of forgiving. Forgiveness of self and asking forgiveness. Those are important in healing our cptsd I think. We often carry shame towards ourselves for what happened and guilt for how our condition hurts the relationships around us.

Now people may think I'm crazy for this. I'm not as thorough or articulate as the book was and I'm still relearning this new idea of forgiveness. It was an excellent guide though in working through it. Kind of gave me a big, girl understanding of how it is possible for people to forgive some horrible stuff. Forgiveness really is all about me. If I never saw him again, I still have the right to get to a place where I find peace in the present and turn my energy from reliving my past to working towards my future.

Hopefully that might help some people who want to explore it.

[woodsgnome]

I've been trying to wrap some meaningful thoughts around the very touchy topic of forgiveness forever. A lot of my reactions are just that: re-actions. But reading through the beautiful commentaries here I've come to another realization that makes this all easier for me (but still hard; and that's alright). Simply, it's...

...forgiveness is more about being than it is about doing.

Accepting your inner strength and peace can overpower the abusers in ways more beautiful than one had imagined. Who you are now overrides who they tried to make you think you were then (victim, for instance). Even the words used won't really matter anymore ("Language is an imperfect tailor"--Rumi).