Should they know

[Dee]

On Friday I discussed my recent visit with my parents and the reason why I do this.  One of the reasons (of many) is so my kids at least have the illusion of grandparents.  I didn't really have any and I felt it was something I was missing out on as a kid.  So I have gone to extremes to keep my kids safe while providing some contact with grandparents. 

My therapist remarked that they are not kids (16,19) and longer and asked how long I am going to keep this up?  When do I plan on telling them; I said never.  She asked how I would react if my kids found out.  I told her I would be devastated.  I told her I don't want them to know that about me.  She said it isn't who I am and doesn't define me.  She said it has up to now, but no longer.  She said she wants me to think (but not worry) about what may happen if they find out.  She said with the internet it could happen.  She said secrets come out often no matter how hard we try to keep them.

I think she feels that if they know I will no longer subject myself to these painful visits.  This last time was bad, I feel apart physically and I had a terrible time with flashbacks and nightmares.  I spent all of Friday and Saturday exhausted.  On Friday she told me to go home and sleep.  To spend the weekend trying to rest and eat.  There is exhaustion and then there is exhaustion.

I don't know.  I just feel it isn't something they need to know, but I would be curious to other's views.  Could I be wrong, that this is so horrible they never need to know?  To feel that they would never regard me the same?

[Three Roses]

That is a tough decision.

It will stir up emotions in your kids, knowing this, but I really doubt they would see you in a negative light. However, your parents they will definitely feel differently toward. And, as it's not information your kids need in order to move forward and heal, imo I personally would probably not tell them.

However. (You knew there'd be a however!  ) The feeling that you have, the worry that your kids will see you differently - that is toxic shame. Your past does not define you; these things are not "you", they are what happened to you. And seeing how these visits are physically and emotionally dangerous for you, I think I would cut contact immediately.

But, how to explain that? I'm sure your kids, at 16 and 19, know that something is "off" regarding the relationship between you and your parents. They must be aware of your condition after this last visit. Can you say something like this to them - that you find yourself in a place where you can no longer continue with things the way they have been; that you are focusing more on yourself & healing and less on the needs of your parents and siblings; that you and they (your kids) are and always have been the most important things in your life, but now that's going to look differently while you learn to express your own needs; that you want to give them information that will explain it all but not explain more than is necessary; that maybe someday you will tell them more, but not today.

Something else occurs to me too - you may be doing your kids a favor, especially if your m is poking you in the hips and telling you you're getting fat. Imo that is just an evil thing to say. Your children may be helped, in the long run, by cutting contact with such a toxic person.

Sorry this is so long!  I'll wrap it up by saying that giving your kids the gift of seeing their mom stand up for herself, move into healing, and making healthy changes could be the best thing you ever give them.

No matter what, it all boils down to what you are able to do and say. I'll be interested to see what you decide.

[Three Roses]

Also I think I should mention that I told my own kids that I was abused and who by, but gave no details. They know a little more now as adults, but I've told no one the whole story.

[radical]

I'm so sorry that another person's evil behaviour (make that two people) has put you in this position.  That they were the people responsible for caring for and protecting you as a child, and choose to continue to betray you still, to the point that endangers your health, makes it so much worse.

I think there is a real danger that your children could find out from other sources, and I agree with your therapist.  I hate having to say that, I've given it some thought and wasn't going to offer any opinion.  It may be my own current experiences of abuse that bring me to this conclusion. 

I believe that in an abusive system, this kind of secret can be used against you.  I don't know if your ex knows, but your sister does, your parents do, and it is probably hard to know for sure who else.   In a sick system where one person is scapegoated, has been targeted for abuse for decades, has been blamed for others crimes, has been "forgiven" even, the whole thing is so toxic that trusting that anyone will do right by you, is dangerous.  The worst thing about this kind of madness in a system is that it puts even good or mainly good people into the position of needing to save themselves.  And it seems like you are the only person who is deeply concerned for others - your children, your sister, your nieces and nephews.  This goodness is a disadvantage is a system which deteriorated into lies, denial and dog eat dog.

What I see is you, a good person who was never taught to protect herself, or that you are precious and deserve protection, trying to do the right thing by the people you love, trying to be the protector of others.  What I see is someone who needs to finally see herself for what she is, as the good person in this situation, as someone worthy of protection and love.  I see that the only person, tragically, who can do that is you.  It is so deeply unfair, that no-one within has ever been unable to be that for you, and as a result you've seen even more pain and abuse.

But i think it is time to start thinking about what you need to do for you and your children, how best to protect and love you, your daughter and your son and to protect the love between you from the dangers of people, (even good people), who might throw you and your loved ones under a bus if they feel and advantage or a need to protect themselves.  I think you need to know that your children have had one parent who loves them deeply and who has done everything in her power to protect them and give them what she never had, and to trust them.  Even though it will be hard for all of you, you will all come through it.

Like Roses says this was never your shame.  You are whole, you are the innocent party in this situation. But there are public records of what was done to you, there are other people who know, who are still part of the sick system that harmed you.  There is a whole lot of shame and none of it belongs to you.  I think it might be time to take action to protect yourself and your children, to take control.

It is so unfair that you should be put in this situation.  I'm not sure that in your position, i would have the courage to do what I'm recommending you do,  but i believe that it is best for you and for your children that you take control.

I hope others will jump in and offer their support, experience and wise counsel, especially if they think what I'm saying is wrong.

I care about you.  It seems strange because we've never met, but I do.

[Dee]

I am overwhelmed with love and support.  Something I have not had until recently.  I am processing...

thank you!!!

[radical]

   :hug:sending love across many miles, or kilometres as we say around here.

[sanmagic7]

dee, the one thing that you've said here and in another post is that you wanted to give your children the 'illusion' of grandparents.  an illusion is a non-reality.  these are not grandparents in the real sense of the word - just like they haven't been parents in the real sense of the word.

yeah, they gave you life, and are related to your children because of that, but the rest of it just isn't right.  you are under no obligation, to my mind, to continue to put yourself in such a terrible position, and, connected to that, your children.  i agree with your therapist, that your kids aren't youngsters anymore.  they don't need to be subjected to seeing their mother abused in front of them.  i don't doubt they recognize the dynamic, and are learning about boundaries while they watch.

you deserve better.  your kids deserve better.  kids learn by actions and behaviors far more than they learn from words.  if you don't want to get into past details with them, you can refer to the present behaviors and tell them you don't want to be around that anymore, so you're not going to visit.  you can make this as simple as possible, and as easy on yourself as you can.   having to spend the weekend in bed, exhausted, because of a visit says volumes.  like was said, your kids know something's up. 

easier said than done, of course.  it's up to you.  whatever your decision, i'll back you up.  if you do decide to cut the cord, we'll be here for you, holding on as best we can from around the world.  this is tough stuff.  hanging on right beside you.  big hug, dee.

[Dee]

First, and most important, I want to tell you all how I feel about you.  I went to bed last night thinking that I always say I don't have any friends.  I have moved a lot all my life and I isolate.  However, last night I realized that isn't true.  I have wonderful friends that are supportive and caring right here.  It may be virtual, but it doesn't make it any less so.  All of you know me better than anyone and all of you make me feel valuable.  So thank you!

I also learned last night that a simple google search of my dad's name and he comes up on the first page.  To make it worse it lists his convictions.  Victims may be protected, but when one of the convictions is incest and at a time when my sister had moved out long ago, it leaves little to the imagination. 

I know that it will only take one day of being bored doing homework or studying and my kids may start to google the names of their family. I don't want them to find out like that.  I truly don't want them to find out ever, but I am not sure it is avoidable.  Also, my ex husband knows.  He only knows because my dad was in prison when we were married and we never discussed it.  He just asked me not to tell his parents.

I also realized I am not ready for them to know.  So I think a new therapy goal is going to have to be to get myself to a place that I can tell them.  They don't need details, but I can't chance it to their dad getting even or a simple name search.  This is going to mean facing my guilt and shame head on.  Yet, I am not ready to tell them if I can't look at them.  Now it is on the agenda.  The truth is a person cannot outrun their past, there comes a point when they have to deal with it.

[sanmagic7]

dee, may i respectfully disagree with you about your shame and guilt.  that belongs to someone else, not to you.  maybe you feel guilty about not bringing this up sooner w/ your kids, or for subjecting them to the abuse that you still undergo while in your parents' presence.  always, please, remember that we aren't able to do what we don't know how to do, or when to do it.  the fact that you are working on this, exploring it, readying yourself for change that includes your kids absolves you of guilt and/or shame.  what was done to you holds no shame or guilt for you - both of those are totally on the other person,

do i need to hold shame and guilt for the mistakes i made with my kids?  do any of us?  as long as we are willing to learn what the mistakes are,  doing all we can to rectify the situation, change what we can so we don't make the same mistakes - i truly believe these actions and changes we make put that shame and guilt to rest.  i carried so much of those emotions about my daughter until i asked about it here.  the reassurance and support i got was invaluable, and dissolved those feelings.  i was finally able to throw them off, leave them where they belonged, which was not with me.  i was able to apologize for my part in the whole thing, but i was also able to allow the rest of it to sit on the shoulders of those who were also culpable.  i no longer had to carry any of that horrid load.

so, good for you for your courage in tackling this.  it sounds like you have a great therapist to help you get through it and do what you need to do.  and, we're here for you, too.  bless you.

[Three Roses]