Panic- Who is wrong here? Father and his girlfriend -Boundary?

[Sienna]

Oh my gosh...feeling panicy again.
This time - to do with my dad.
Put it in this catagory- don't know if he has a PD, but some odd stuff going on.

In women's refuge. Needed money to pay rent.
Had no choice to ask my dad. Said its been expensive, thought i could manage, had money taken from me from benefits people and had an appointment and other expenses to pay.
He asked if it was counselling to which i said yes and that i don't want to stop going.
He called later that night saying he put money in my bank to which i thanked him.
He did what he does offloading to me - about narc mother who's had a go at him on the phone about my sister...
not interested in asking questions about my life.
He told me he told his girlfriend I'm in therapy, was was excited as she recommended going on the NHS.
I said to him that thats really nice of him to think of that for me, but that i just wish he would have thought to ask me first before just telling her. My first thought was BOUNDARY INVASION-
but was it?
I didnt even tell him how i *felt* about him telling her
He brushed it off and said *oh well* and continued talking about himself
I said, *i don't think your hearing me*
to which he said *um maybe not...Anyway...* and continued talking.
I hung up angry
He kept ringing and i was panicking and angry so i didnt answer. I just wanted my phone to stop ringing.

He text saying he had been cut off but didnt know why...he does this...i hung up before but he didnt acknowledge that it was cos of something he said. I didnt reply cos there was no acknowledgement of what just happened.
The last time i hung up on the phone was when he said *now don't go feeling all down now*
and then I SI after the call as i was angry, upset and panicked.

I didnt speak to him for a while as there was no apology but his girlfriend wanted to know why. i told her the truth.
i just wanted him to understand what i was saying and not brush me off. Its not what he did but him brushing off what i said (the boundary i set?)...that hurt.

Texting his girlfriend tonight back and forth about xmas plans.
said i didnt know if i should come back to visit him cos i thought he was mad at me
(and theres much more to the story than that that i can say to her that Ive been talking about in therapy)
She said i didnt thank dad, the 2 times i should have,
that he does have problems with apologising,
she said sorry your upset, but none of this is your dads fault , he only tried to help you

to which i said:
.that i thanked him for his help- both times
.all i wanted from him was an acknowledgment of what happened, to know that he understood and that we could move on...
and that i just left it as its not mine to fix.

I was mad but I'm not mad anymore.
Its just up to him as my *dad* to come forward and let me know he is sorry / that he understands - and if he cant do that, that sucks, and i feel bad for him, but i have every right to feel angry that i have a dad who cant don't I?
There's much more stuff to the dad story than just things like this.

He either told his girlfriend that i didnt thank him - as he feels guilty for the fact that he cant apologise to me / doesnt think he did anything wrong / feels too ashamed blah blah blah
Or- She is telling me this stuff to seperate us and she is stuck in the middle like what narcissists do.

Is it correct to say that i put up a boundary? or didnt I?
Is dad in the wrong here?
I can't visit him for xmas.
I feel abandoned by my whole family since i started therapy, becasue my anger at my narc mum has lead me to not seeing her at xmas (I'm scared of her) and i didnt know how to reply to her messages when i felt afraid and angry. So i left it and now its xmas.
She is mad and she thinks ill never speak to her again. I cant after the message she sent.
And dad- if I'm angry at him- and he *knows about it*, he abandons me too.

I think i need to know what any of you think....
maybe some support ..

[bring em all in]

Sounds like narcissistic parenting to me- your dad included, but who am I to judge? When they were living both of my parents used emotional abandonment strategies to "lock me out" until I fawned and groveled my way back in to their good graces. Now I fawn in most situations in which there is conflict with anybody- except for the times I swing the other way and over-react in a fight response.

I'm not sure anyone can answer your questions for you. We can give our opinions, but they are just that- our opinions. As you wrote, there is more in the history of your relationships than what you shared, and that makes you best qualified. But, if you are like me, you've come to question your own judgment.

This response probably doesn't help you much- but maybe it shows you that you are not alone in having difficulty interpreting situations and deciding what to do.

[Sienna]

bring em all in....hey, i think your new? Hi from me if so 

Thanks so much for your reply. My anxiety is still high.
My parents are divorced- my mum is undiagnosed narc.
Do you mean it sounds like his girlfriend and - or- dad is narcissistic?
I don't know if he is a narcissistic, but uses me to forfil his needs via covert incest.  (may have been more stuff in the past)
But i think he is codependent. Didn't protect me from my mum.
Was angry when i had to tell him what was the matter with me- long story, but i said its mum stuff and he was angry, and he was angry when i said i feared my partner of the time (also a nrac turned out)...doing what ever he wants with me.

Im super sorry your parents were like that, and that that became your trauma response to try to avoid abandonment. Terrifying for a child. You did your best to ensure your survival, however it was very manipulative of them.

My question is, can a boundary be broken if you didnt set one in the first place?
If you didnt say *id rather this just be between me and you*- i did say that it was personal when i told him YES, I'm in therapy.

Your response did help me to know i was not alone and that i have bene heard.
Thank you so much.

[Three Roses]

It seems some people are clueless when it comes to confidentiality. Having been in therapy myself, I would automatically protect someone's privacy if they were in therapy too - but I've also meet people who would share that and not think twice.

My first reaction, in this particular instance, was to say your dad just didn't know any better. But, surely he knows you, and how private you are?? I mean, I only know you on the Internet but I know you're a private person who wouldn't like people sharing her stuff with everyone. And if you told him "This is personal", then he really ought not to have shared the info with anyone, imo.

Yes, boundaries can be broken if one isn't set first, again just imo; I think some boundaries should be common sense for most people. When I'm in doubt, I always say, "Hey, I know you wouldn't share that, but I just feel better asking you not to."

Hugs to you, gentle sienna. Take care of yourself.

[Sienna]

Three Roses, thank you sooo much for your message.
You have always been here, and i really appreciate that.

T agrees dad doesnt have any boundaries, so its hard for me to know where the boundaries are or how to set any of my own with him.
I don't think he does know any better and just wanted to help.
I don't think he knows me at all. And he doesnt know how private i am. He doesnt know anything about me, especially my private emotional life. He has never been here for me emotionally.
I agree actually, yes, i did say it was personal...so he shoiulkdnt have shared it.
My head i screwed. Like with other things that happened in my life with men, I'm questioning myself again..thinking that i didnt say it loud enough, or clear enough...so he didnt hear me.
But maybe he did hear me.
I guess people do have boundaries, i.e. one being personal space, so its common sense to not invade it.

Thank you for the hugs. Are you ok Three Roses? 

[Sienna]

TRIGGERS ....

I just need to write. I know others here may be going through a lot this xmas.
Xmas seems to intensify what is already wrong.
I know I'm so lucky in many ways, and due to the fright of thinking i would be homeless, I'm so appreciative that I'm not.
Was in a bad place of anxiety and sadness yesterday after dads girlfriends text.
Don't know if i should reach out to dad, as i don't know if its coming from him or her, but he didn't reply to my text i know that much.
I feel guilty and like I'm in the wrong. He couldn't / didn't want to save me from my mother, so should i try to help him with his girlfriend?
I mean, he wouldn't leave anyway. I think he is too afraid of being alone, * no friends and only me who is/ was in contact with him in the family.

I feel more than ever like an auphan, that know one wants. And i feel like its all my fault. I feel abandoned and unwanted, and the worst part (at the moment) is that i could be all my fault (though that could be a defence against pain)

His girlfriend asked what I'm doing for Xmas. her and dad are spending it alone- they didnt know what my plans were.
Had a feeling that  i wasnt *invited*. She never said to come up here if i want to and have it with them.
I do think she wants dad all to herself.
I feel that, dad would never just via text or something that i was ok and not alone on xmas.
And i feel that i could never forgive him for ...*abandoning* me this year, simply because i havent apologised when i havent done anything wrong...i don't think.

I have been out today with friends walking and drinking coffee, which helps me get by, and i feel so lucky to have that. I didnt tell them about this.
The evenings are hard and its when the anxiety hits. Its there all the time but intensifies when Im alone.
Its like a panic inside. and it feels hard to breathe.
I keep telling the little girl inside of me that we need to be strong, and that she needs to be a big girl.
She keeps repeating to me over and over that she is so scared.
I am scared, but I'm struggling to figure out why and what It is that I'm scared of.
Im afraid -being alone in the world but i don't now what of.
My dad was all i had left, even if he was never here for me. His home, as much as i hated it, was a safety net should anything go wrong. Maybe now its gone.
I feel ..confused. Messed up inside , which feel uncomfortable. I think its what you would call, a conflict.
Im still running and i don't want to stop. Im afraid of freezing / my feelings.
Never thought id be in the refuge by xmas with this social anxiety, nervous about xmas day, being alone for parts of it.

I feel so young. Like a little girl, not an adult. I feel scared, like clinging onto someone- anyone, begging them to not leave me alone.
This seperate co dependant part, is not me- I'm counter - but i think she is here to try to avoid abandonment.

Didn't dad forgive me / just accept when i made mistakes?
Did i make any with him??
If he did, shouldn't i say to him that i understand that its hard to admit a mistake, how bad you feel as a person when you make a mistake...
as i got *finding it hard to apologise / admit I'm wrong* from my parents.
But he wasnt accepting of my feelings  / my boundary .../ unhappiness at what he did...
But thats not his fault either...!

Hes not been here for me- so why should i be here for him?
But two wrongs don't make a right...am i being overly responsible?
He doesn't understand / try to understand my feelings and my *mistakes*..my anger...so maybe i should stop feeling responsible for fixing this?

[bring em all in]

Hi, Sienna! I'm sorry to read that you are suffering so much, but I'm glad that you avail yourself of this forum to express your feelings.

At age 53, I don't feel "new," but I am new to the forum

I feel guilty and scared most of the time also. Last night I was so scared and angry I thought I might have to go in-patient at a mental hospital. C-PTSD and adverse childhood experiences are that serious! I've learned not to minimize and get caught up in "I'm lucky that..." thinking. It's one thing for me to be grateful for what I have and for how bad things could have been, but that doesn't mean I deserved or should forget what did happen. My mother died in 2009 and my dad in 2012 and I still have emotional flashbacks that leave me feeling like a 7-year old boy freezing and fawning to curry favor with others.

I'm no doctor, but your dad's behavior seems narcissistic to me. I was an emotional husband to my mom throughout my childhood. It was emotional incest for me- this sounds like what you wrote about your experiences with your dad.

There is a book I read that has been very helpful to me. It's titled Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nakazawa. She writes of the adverse childhood experiences of poor parenting and how they affect us into adulthood. It hasn't healed what I am experiencing now but it has helped me understand why I feel the way I feel, and provides realistic approaches to healing the trauma. I like that she says it isn't about blaming parents for our childhoods- our parents were likely the way the were because of their own adverse childhood experiences.

Pete Walker's book on C-PTSD has been eye-opening also, but I'm only part way through the book.

It might seem like my post is mostly about me- I don't mean to sound narcissistic- but I hate it when people tell me what I SHOULD/SHOULD NOT think/feel/do and I try my best not to should on anyone else.

I do hope something of this will be of help to you. I know holidays are especially difficult and you will be with me in my thoughts!

[Sienna]

Hey bring em all in,
Thank you for your reply, especially as its close to xmas.

Your post didnt come across as narcissistic to me at all (i worry too about that in my posts to others)

I hate it when people tell me what I SHOULD/SHOULD NOT think/feel/do and I try my best not to should on anyone else.

Me too! Its so nice to have someone else who also thinks that, when it seems that the rest of the world does exactly the opposite! Im sure i did at one point cos i was brought up that way and didnt know any better, but know i know its like..ahhh!

I am glad that you are glad that I'm using the forum. I get weirded about that...about what it looks like and what others think. I have been trying to shorten my posts as they are long.

Haha, well, welcome to the forum!
Im so sorry you felt so awful last night. What did you do in the end? Did anyone know?
Hugs to you. 
You are right, CPTSD and what happened to cause it is serious.

I've learned not to minimize and get caught up in "I'm lucky that..." thinking. It's one thing for me to be grateful for what I have and for how bad things could have been, but that doesn't mean I deserved or should forget what did happen. My mother died in 2009 and my dad in 2012 and I still have emotional flashbacks that leave me feeling like a 7-year old boy freezing and fawning to curry favor with others.

Im sorry things were so tough. You are right, and its so refreshing to hear you say that- about not invaliding yourself.
I guess i do worry that others would think this is nothing, even if its not, and i guess we have to take into account the flashbacks. I realised that being homeless would be awful..(that might have been an EF in itself as its similar to the abandonment fear I'm feeling right not about my dad)
but being homeless is another type of ...difficulty.
The fact that you have a home / place to stay- you do appreciate- but that doesnt take away the pain of other things that are happening.
And i guess i felt guilty about that. Man. Whats with that?

I agree, his behaviour does seem narcissistic. Not sure if he is a narcissist but doesnt have to be of course to have narcissistic behaviour.
He could be a different type of narc to my mum.

Yes, your experience sounds like what is happening with my dad (emotional incest)
Only found out what was happening this time last year and i wonder if I'm feeling *too responsible* for this situation.
Thank you so much for the book recommendation. I have that one but havent read it yet.
Its so great to hear that it helped you to understand *why* you feel the way you do, and what you can do about it ..not about the feelings.
I have heard that instead of trying to understand or rationalise or make logical, to just feel your feelings no matter how awful they feel.
Easier said than done at times...sometimes feeling what you feel, then finding out why can help take some of the pain away i find.

I love Pete Walker also. Great book.
One Ive just read is called *Silently seduced, when parents make children their partners*.
Trigger warnings and if you havent read, may leave your head spinning.

Yes, i totally agree, that our parents are the way they are because of their own childhood experiences. Knowing that always make me feel understanding but i know i need to leave it at that and not get sucked into anything or just accept what they are doing.

You have helped me, very much, by being here, wanting to help, for taking the time to read my long post and for letting me know I'm not alone, and that I'm in your thoughts.
I know it sounds cheesy, but that means the world to me.
You are in my thoughts too. 

[Sienna]

So...Im here! Hope everyone is doing ok.
I survived, but...there wasnt much to survive on the actually day, which was just great.
And i think ive been pretty numb. Just watching things go by.
Anyway, still here and ok.

Dad sent a text Christmas eve, not mentioning what happened, but i didnt care about that.
His text made me sad...and i don't know what s going on- but ill talk to my T about it in Jan.

Wrote a little note to the only housemate that is in the house at the moment and left it on the couch, saying that i hope she's ok and that I'm sorry i advent been around to ask her what she was doing for christmas.
Hope that wasnt a bad thing to do, I'm trying to reach out in the only way i felt comfortable doing so. Very unlike me, but there you go. I hope the is a good thing and a positive step.

Heard her go out xmas day morning but i wasnt awake then.
Said that i hate not being able to be around...and that thats not who i am, and that..maybe we can hang out when I'm back. Just came out for coffee..she was still upstairs.
I really hope she's not down...
and feel like a terrible person, racked with guilt that i couldn't make sure she wasnt alone on the day. (the guy friend i spent it with wanted it to be just us..he is nervous around others too), so i couldn't please everyone.
Its not my fault i got so triggered with shame due to therapy topics discussed, and fear and anxiety about being around other women, but it feeds into that whole family thing that happened- guilt.
Hopefully it will all be ok.

[Sienna]

Reading the past texts, i realise, that his girlfriend said, that dad was mad at me becasue i didnt reply to his past texts.
He doesnt understand that I'm in therapy, and that its do with what him- and my mum- therefore I'm angry, and I'm allowed to feel that way.
He was mad because after that horrible phone call in which he betrayed my trust and told his girlfriend that I'm in therapy, after me saying that is personal you know? to him,
I was mad-
but more mad at his invalidation of me saying to him, that i thought he would have thought to ask me before he told her.
He invalidated that and went on talking about himself, saying , oh well...
to which i said, i don't think your hearing me...
to which the same response...
I hung up after he moaned on and on to me about his girlfriend, completely disregarding what i said.
He kept ringing and i went into a full fledged panic. i wanted the phone calls to stop.

He is mad at me, because i was angry with him- though indirectly.
I tried to talk about what i was unhappy with like an adult,
but he isn't in the place where he can talk about what happened.

He IS mad at me because i feel angry with what he did, and how he invalidated my feelings about it.
Im glad i could revisit the text conversation i had with her.
Maybe there is nothing to feel guilty about.
Bring in the new year...and thank you to everyone who has been here for me this past year.