[mourningdove]

And by the way, spanking is abuse.

(This is inspired by another thread, but I didn't want to hijack it.)

***trigger warning***

I was spanked throughout my childhood and it was abuse. My mother liked to use wooden spoons because of the extra sting, and that was sadistic abuse. My parents kept a dedicated spanking paddle made of splintery wood in the kitchen. That was abuse. One time, my dad got extra angry and spanked me with his leather belt. It hurt so bad, I still remember it. he got triggered by my screaming and crying and the marks on me, and ended up begging me not to "make him" spank me again, and I ended up comforting him, because that's the way my parents rolled. How old was I? 4 or 5, maybe? He never did use the belt again, but that wasn't the end.

I preferred it when my mother spanked me, because she did not need to be consoled afterwards. She felt perfectly justified inflicting pain on small children, and would just go about her day afterwards. Surely this was just them trying to be good parents, right? That must be why they would chase me all over the house, rageful and red-faced. That must be why so much thought was given to which spanking methods would be the most painful.

When I became a teen and was too big to be easily subdued, my mother took to slapping me hard across the face. Occasionally, I would block it with my hand, and then she would wait until later when I had let my guard down and then strike out of the blue. She would strike me so hard that her hand would hurt and would then blame me for her hand hurting. She eventually stopped slapping me when I started taking it without reaction and mocking her for how weak the blows were. To this day, everyone thinks she is a nice lady. A couple weeks ago, she made a swatting motion with her hand, in a way that she thought was a joke, and I involuntarily flinched.

I tried to talk to my T about this a long time ago, but it was obvious that she had spanked her kids, and she claimed that spanking is okay for some kids, but I'm just more sensitive. I am more sensitive than most, but i don't think that makes spanking okay. If you chase down and beat a person, because you don't like what they have said or done, you will go to jail - unless it is your kid.

Spanking is abuse.

[alliematt]

What you went through WAS abuse.  I am so sorry.   

[Blueberry]

Totally agree. I'm not reading most of your post so as not to trigger myself, but

***** TRIGGER warning ******
 this 'activity' can also be a form of sexual abuse. It was in my case. The effects have been horrendous. And of course it is very difficult to talk about because so many people can't / won't take it seriously, including therapists. For me to talk about - I'm so embarrassed and ashamed that the topic bothers me. If I talk about it in more detail than now (which I don't need to here and won't) I trigger myself. Certain words are enough and I'm off into EF for days or weeks.

[woodsgnome]

I too need to be careful here--this is extremely dangerous trigger territory for me if I wade in too far.

So rather than detail my woeful tales along the lines of physical abuse (especially, in my case, by teachers in parochial schools), all I so badly want right now is this-- for you, Mourning Dove....lots of these...          
 

[mourningdove]

Thank you all. I really appreciate the support, especially on an issue like this that is so easy for so many to get triggered by. It makes such a huge difference just to have your validation.

 

[bring em all in]

Not having been spanked as you describe, these posts do not trigger me, so perhaps I can offer a more detailed response. I hope what I write will not be a trigger for you.

Spanking is trauma. It is physical trauma in the physical pain it causes. Many parents claim they are doing it "for your own good" and that "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you." This is rarely the case. "spanking" is rarely a measured response doled out with the sole intention of "teaching" a child right from wrong. Even if it begins that way it too often devolves into an adult taking out their anger on someone smaller and weaker than they are.

Of course, that is never to the child's benefit. 

It is also psychological pain. To be hurt by someone you should be able to trust, who is supposed to be your protector and source of love and comfort, would shake a child's sense of safety and self-worth. To strike a child is to negate their sense of self-worth. It positions the child in a mindset of submission to a "hjgher power" (and I use that term intentionally). To see this person so overcome by anger that they strike out physically is terrifying. I imagine a child could feel even more petrified fearing the adult would lose even more control and inflict even more harm. The "lessons" learned are "you deserve to be hit" and "you are too small and weak to stop me." These lessons are ingrained into a child and stay with them until/unless processing as an adult re-educates them otherwise.

I believe this is why the topic is such a trigger to many people. The very idea sends them back to those stages of development when they were the small helpless child facing the wrath.

If your therapist cannot see this, it might be time to find a new one. It is not a matter of you being "sensitive." It's a matter of you KNOWING that what happened wasn't right, and that it has had a profound effect on you. 

As I read your posts I was reminded of the songs "Luka" by Suzanne Vega and "* is for Children" by Pat Benatar.

[Wife#2]

** Trigger warning, I will try to be vague, but will likely fail ***

I have been on both sides of this issue - as child of a parent, as student (Catholic nun teacher disciplinarian) and as a parent. I came to the conclusion that I must defy my husband and refuse to spank ever again. Period.

I happen to agree that spanking is abuse. Period. It is harmful to the physical, psychological and emotional health of a child.

Time out DOES work if applied consistently and in proper proportion to the misbehavior (lying, hitting another, stealing). For the same reasons restriction works for most teenagers. Most human beings, especially as children, want and need social time with parents and peers. When that is limited due to a child's behavior, they are learning two healthy lessons. 1) Nobody enjoys being around someone who acts out in those wrong ways. 2) While in time-out or restriction, the child AND the adult get to calm down and decide on better ways to communicate so this doesn't happen again.

NO punishment will EVER work, though, if there is not mutual respect of personhood from BOTH participants.

What I have learned by being a parent is that a child MUST have safety and dependability. They MUST have love and a sense of worth. We, as parents have an awesome responsibility to instill these in our children. That can only be accomplished by showing respect and love to the child, and to other adults in the child's world. Earning respect can only happen after showing respect. Respect cannot be demanded. Neither can proper behavior be forced after violence.

[mourningdove]

Bring em all in and Wife#2,

Tried to reply yesterday, but went a little numb after I read your posts. I think it is because they are so accurate! I really appreciate what each of you wrote. 

I used to hear that song "Luka" on the radio and not consciously make the connection to my own life. :/

Thank you both so much!

 

[hurtbeat]

It is most definitely abuse!

It was illegal in my country when I got spanked (amongst other things like getting my hair pulled out) but my mother always used to minimize it and say that it wasn't "hitting" or "abuse".

I can imagine how invalidating it must be for you who live in places where spanking is considered part of a healthy upbringing.
I've even had people tell me that they got an occasional spanking and that they where fine so why shouldn't I be?

People who haven't suffered through abuse and mental turmoil just have no idea how to relate.
Today I just say "good for you" and then don't discuss it with them any more, they will never know how it feels and I am glad for them.

[Candid]

The only thing spanking 'teaches' small children is that it's okay to hurt someone much smaller than yourself if you feel like it.

Mourningdove, I'm appalled that your parents kept a dedicated spanking paddle for your 'education'.

 

[mourningdove]

Thanks, hurtbeat. 

I've even had people tell me that they got an occasional spanking and that they where fine so why shouldn't I be?

Yes, that is very scary to me, because it means that they are not fine, at least in their attitude toward spanking, and they don't even know it. I think that spanking should be illegal everywhere.

The only thing spanking 'teaches' small children is that it's okay to hurt someone much smaller than yourself if you feel like it.

Mourningdove, I'm appalled that your parents kept a dedicated spanking paddle for your 'education'.

Thanks, Candid. 

That paddle was an especially tragic symbol of intergenerational trauma, because it had been kept from when my father was a child. My grandmother had used it on him when she wasn't torturing him in other ways "for his own good."

[Andyman73]

Ummmmm......yeah....

I got some, 4-5 days a week from age 5 to 11....6 years....52 weeks.... approximately 312 times a year....1,400 or so...episodes....10-12 .............. each time. So....maybe 14,000-16,800 over all?

TW - details

That is only the thick, wide leather belt, popular from late 60s-early 80s.  Only the belt.  I've had half a dozen or more wooden spoons broken over my head. Never wooden hairbrush though...too thick to break. Extension cords, wire coat hanger, the good ol' stand by...hand.

Couldn't sit without pain for 6 years. 

I can't see mom's face, can't hear her voice, growling, ugly words.  Everything above the shoulders is blank.  My two brothers confirm that mommy dearest was quite brutal. They never got any of her physical punishment. That was my special privelege as first born.

Gonna stop now..fingers shaking too badly can't type or spell..

I'm so so sorry...

[Elphanigh]

Found this thread today.. I have very rarely talked about the spanking my parents, particularly my mother did to me as a child. It was always something that was supposed to be for our own good.... I have never felt like it was right, but always assumed it was because I was being abused in other ways. I assumed my sensitivity to it was purely from the sexual/emotional/physical abuse I was enduring in other places.

It is validating to read all of this, like maybe I am not over reacting to it. Thank you all for this

[Andyman73]

I never thought it was abuse. At that time, I thought abuse was what those kids that came to school looking abused, was.

[melere]

I was spanked as well and I've always been sensitive about it. I think what bothers me the most isn't what actually happened, but about how the people around me view it. **(TW)** People will get on the topic of unruly children and say, "Kids are so bratty these days. It's because parents aren't allowed to spank anymore. I was spanked and I turned out fine." Once I heard someone talking about doing it to their toddler and how it "didn't seem to be doing anything" and timeouts worked much better. (Ya think??) **(TW over)** Honestly, whenever it comes up, I get so angry I can't even speak. None of them have any concept of the harm they might be inflicting or indeed how ineffective it is overall.

I'm so sorry you had to go through that, mourningdove. Same for everyone else who was spanked. But we can help stop the cycle.