spanking is abuse. spanking is abuse. spanking is abuse. spanking is abuse - Part 1

[briasmith12]

Just going to keep this thread going, apparently. 

***TW***

DH and I were talking about this the other night. He knows some of my history so he asked, "Would you allow me to spank our kids?" and I responded emphatically "Absolutely not. Never, ever will you lay a hand on our children. It's abuse." He doesn't get it, sees nothing wrong with it. He was part of the "I got spanked and turned out fine." He agrees that what I went through was abuse (belt, wooden spoons being literally broken by impact, etc.), but his dad, apparently, would never spank him in "anger". it was always presented rationally, which is a whole other topic of the psychological impacts of spanking. He'd do something wrong, be sent to his room and then some time later his dad would come up, explain to him what he did wrong to "deserve" the punishment, spank him, then hug him and tell him that "This hurts me more than it hurts you" bull**** and how he never wanted to "have to do that" again. It makes me so angry and panicky, I just can't deal. DH ended the conversation by saying it will be his last resort. I told him it will never come to that, and I will never let it come to that. When we have kids, when he sees just how much I won't let him touch our children, he'll understand. I'd leave him in a heartbeat.

[Elphanigh]

Thank you for keeping the thread alive. It is one of my favorites.

I want to tell you I understand and am in the same boat as you. If kids are ever in my future, I would never let my potential partner lay a hand on them.. it did too much damage to me and there are so many other ways to get through to kids. Spanking is never the answer.

[Phoebes]

Bria- I have a few of those "i was spanked and turned out fine" or, "spanking taught me to respect my elders", etc.. The people in my life who say this also have a plethora of denial issues going on. They are "fine", yet alcoholic, or morbidly obese, horde, or have emotional issues that are undeniable. The spanking did them good, but what made them have addiction, ocd and/or denial then? (I want to ask but don't) I don't buy the "it taught me respect". It taught a lot of things, but respect was not one of them.

In a letter I got from my Nm after going NC (one where she tried to hoover and manipulate of course) she said she thought she needed to "discipline" me to "teach me how to treat people." Yes, to "treat" her in the sadistic way she required. Full and immediate compliance in every situation, and if half a second goes by it's full retaliation by way of hitting, beating and screaming. So she basically confirmed it was wrong, while trying to defend her actions and turn it around on me once more.

I had a recent lunch with my best friend's mom and sister the other day, and they started "joking" about spanking and how they used switches and pink pong paddles and how the kids would try to hide them. I was really triggered and I said I didn't agree with spanking or hitting of any kind. They got real quiet, then defended themselves and laughed it off. I felt a chilly frost when we parted ways and I though "GOOD". I can't listening to all that stuff anymore without saying something. I guess that's a step in the right direction.

[Deep Blue]

Phoebes I'm so glad you said something.  I'm a freeze response mostly or flight.  I had a discussion with a friend a couple months ago and she had said something similar.  I wish I would have said something.  I just shut down and haven't really spoken much with her since.  Heavy sigh    thanks for saying what I didn't have the courage to say.

[Phoebes]

Thanks, Deep Blue. There's been so many times I froze. I usually do freeze, or fawn. I'm trying to get better about believing my opinion matters too, and if people are going to bring stuff like that up, at a fun lunch no less, than I feel like I deserve a say (finally). Although this is hard for me and I'll be working on this for a long time, I'm sure.

Also, above, I did not intend to offend about the addictive and denial issues. Those are some of my issues (alcohol, eating, denial) which after realizing and coming out of the fog about this, it's easy to see in myself, and in others who have the same type of issues.

[Andyman73]

 I used to say I was spanked and turnd out okay. But never as a reason to spank my own kids. Mostly in general conversations. But that was all before my memories came back. Now that I know what I went through...even reading these last few posts has got me all triggered and

WE, my brothersand i , we neve r ever ever dared to try hide anything that could be used. Besides, would be kinda hard to hide belt while mommy was wearing it.  Broken wooden spoons....2 broke on backside, and 4 over head. 

[Libby183]

My mother often said that she hit me a lot but it never did me any harm.  Her weapon of choice was whatever footwear she happened to be wearing. 

The actual beating probably didn't do me a huge amount of harm at the time, but the message it sent to me, about how I had no feelings worth considering did harm me. Forever.

It was her unshakeable belief that nothing she did or said to me could have any negative effect on me that started to lead me out of the fog.

I am ashamed to say that I did hit out at my children a few times when they were young and I was overwhelmed.  I felt awful and always apologised and made them feel loved again.  After my mother hit me,  it was me who had to grovel to her, and forgiveness was an unknown concept for her.

I have lovely relationships with my grown-up children. Once they could talk, I did not need to lash out, but this also coincided with the start of LC with my parents. I think this was a big factor.

[SunnyDays]

Hello,
*triggers warning*

Me too. Unfortunately, there was a time when this was perceived at """"normal""". But even back then, a few decades ago, to be a target of abuse on this topic.... every single night (like my case) was certainly one of the causes of panic attacks back in the 2000s and now generalized anxiety (and fear too though I've overcome it a bit). I took this serious when I perceive that something like that is happening I can be almost sure that there are worst things to come. (I was attempted to be strangled by my mother, at 18, one day after work because I was tired).

xx

[Phoebes]

Sunny, I'm so sorry you've gone through this, too. It sounds like you're even crossing over into more/"extreme" abuse as well. I'm just so sorry. I know how that feels, to have resigned yourself to daily/probable daily "happenings".

Andyman, I really feel for you when you tell your story. I really loathe the people who abused you. I feel like with many of us who had the physical abuse mixed in with the emotional abuse and rages, it's on a whole other level than some of my friends whose parents were overall supportive and loving, and "popped" them a time or two on the bottom. (however your research has me thinking about my own "issues" there). I think that was damaging to them too, but on a different level from the sadistic type of abuse many of us went through.

I was wondering, was there an event that made you remember your abuse at a later age (where you had repressed it?) I wonder this, because I remember my sister being abused a lot, but she does not remember anything. I often wonder if she will remember, and also see the ongoing and current lack of empathy in my Nm. She is the GC, so things are different for her, but I have witness and been on the receiving end of the danger that presents itself in private.

[Andyman73]

Pheobes,

Thank you so so much for being upset on my behalf. That's still a strange concept for me...that others would be upset for me.

Yeah, I agree with you...as far as other kids who got the occaisional backside correctional action, versus us who lived that as a sometimes more than once a day experience. I can't say if those who only got it on the rare occaision....well....can't say, so not gonna speculate either.  Think that as much as the physical does effect us...even those that got the occaisional...I think what the parent was doing ... facial expressions anger and all that stuff.  Were they angry...or totally out of control....you know?

Okay, sooooo what made me remember my trauma....I had a mandatory work training about reporting and preventing sexual assault. And it didn't do anything at the time of doing the training....but 3 days later at 2am, it hit me like a bomb going off in my head! I remembered being SA at age 20/21 by a male predator. While it wasn't overly horrifying physically, the emotional and mental trauma was.  Took another 6 -7 weeks before I got more memories back....and they didn't hit as hard...and most of them came while I was awake.  It probably was 4-5 months later that I remembered my physical child abuse. Been 18 months now....since January 22nd, 2017...and I'm still getting memories back....not as often though. Going back 43 years to age 2.

I'm very sure she will remember...but may take years....not sure how old she is...I was 43 when I started gettng my memories back. But..I had been living with CPTSD pretty much all my life...and it became recognizable to myself back in 1994.  I never ever imagined it would be what it turned out to be.  If I were to count each individual incident as 1 each...then I'm looking at thousands of incidents of abuse over 43 years.   

[LilyITV]

I come from a culture where "spanking" is considered a necessary thing and is even glorified.  It has been so hard for me to come out and admit what I experienced was abuse. 

****trigger warning.  As a child, my dad's punishment of choice was beatings with a belt.  He'd tell me to hold out my hand and not move it, and when of course I had to withdraw due to the pain, he'd start to beat me all over my body.   In a way, the fact that he was not angry when he did it made it worse in ways I can't fully put my finger on.  Maybe I felt like he was justified in doing it because he had thought it through? Thinking back I'm angry because as a child I was a total people pleaser.  Although spanking is never justified, I never did anything as a kid that would have warranted any kind of severe corrective action. 

I have just begun therapy, but one thing I'd like to develop is the assertiveness to push back whenever I hear someone defending spanking.   Just to be able to say, no it's not normal, it is abuse, and frankly you should not be a parent if you don't know how to discipline your kids in other ways. 

[Phoebes]

**TW** (hopefully no one is reading this thread who is concerned about a trigger at this point).
**rambly warning**

This topic is a tough one. I keep hearing more and more, as therapists and life coaches post more and more youtubes, there is less and less about physical abuse that did not leave us with broken arms or big facial bruises. There is a lot about how "emotional abuse is just as, if not more, painful and long lasting, even though it doesn't leave bruises." True. I'm really glad emotional abuse is being exposed.

However, there's not much out there about how being attacked during a narcissistic rage, or being "disciplined" constantly (daily, 3 or 4 times weekly) with belt beatings, or other beatings, don't necessarily "leave a bruise", or if they do, as a child, you don't SEE the bruise on your back side. I remember seeing red, belt-shaped marks on my legs that went away the next day or two, and no adult outside of the home ever saw. As a child I'm not sitting there thinking hmmm now is this a legitimate bruise or mark, or is all that stuff my Nm was raging about more significant?" No, it all went together and was terrifying. I was in constant state of adrenaline, whether physical or verbal, or covertly emotional.

In my recovery, I'm just now kind of able to process the fact that I was not being "disciplined" for wrong-doings. I was being attacked because I was vulnerable. I was being attacked because my "differences" from my mother were interpreted by her as "rebellion" and "disrespectful." For example, If I wanted to wear something she didn't like for herself (like my favorite jeans, green courderoys), that was viewed as an extreme disrespect, because I knew she didn't like them. This was applied to pretty much everything, and by the age of 5 or so, I was cut off from saying anything/my opinion and was "disciplined" if the "wrong" thing came out of my mouth.

If I did do something that a child needed to be taught to do differently, which would have taken a mere conversation, the way she "taught" me was to extreme beat me, and then meanfully say, "NOW. I bet you won't do THAT again, will you!?!" or "NOW. Are you gonna do that AGAIN?" I had to answer with the appropriate word and tone, or I got more. Sometimes I didn't know what she was looking for and kept trying until I got it "right". If I cried, I "got more until I stopped." The more I keep thinking about this, the more horrible I realize it was. One of the triggering and telling things in the last conversation with my mom, it that she proclaimed she "never laid a hand on me." (I understand now her extreme shame that prevents her from taking responsibility now).

I think what is currently so upsetting is I was prevented from pursuing things that would have led to happiness. Things I enjoyed and had a natural inclination toward were ragefully dismissed and scoffed at. If I did them anyway just for fun (music, art), I was criticized or prevented from doing them. I kept doing things I liked despite all the degradation, but I could have actually been a musician, or artist. It's like it was such a foreign thought that that was a possibility. My DAD was a musician and artist, and he never once taught me, defended me or helped me pursue my dreams. My mom criticized him too. He should have gotten me away from her. But no, I blame myself. I don't blame my parents. Everyone knows that you "can't do that" for having made adult decisions not to pursue your dreams. But I'm going to go out on a limb here and declare it WAS their fault. Through beatings, emotional and verbal abuse and neglect. I never believed I could. And in fact, it's like I couldn't do anything without "permission" from somewhere. This being literally beaten into me from an early age, I hate to tell all these "I got spanked"people DID have a severely negative effect on me. Because of all the brainwashing and societal messages, it's taken me years to realize I need to heal from this.

[Deep Blue]

Phoebes,
I agree with you here so much.  What you describe has really really long lasting consequences.  Many of those consequences I am still realizing...
Consequences:
1. I have severe anxiety and panic attacks
2. I still struggle with SH because it was the only thing I felt I could control
3. I have triggers daily.... many related to implements used...
4. I don't cry... I guess I would like to.  I was in the same situation as you. No tears or utterances were to come out of my mouth.  If they did... "extreme abuse" as you put it would follow.  So today I can't cry, I dissociate or get a panic attack instead.... so many interwoven damages 

[Phoebes]

I can really relate to all of these  too, DB.
The not being able to cry around other people makes me feel like an alien.
I think I've realized I have an affect disorder as well. I can literally feel people pulling away from me, because I can't be normal.
I can relate to daily triggers. There are so many..I guess I'm learning to talk myself down from those as much as I can. Recognize it, and talk through it in my mind.
So sorry you're experiencing this, too. I feel like we have all come really far, but these somatic responses are very deep and take time, like grief. It's not a linear process..

[Blueberry]

I am responding to a very old post due to some new realisations and growth. This means bumping what is a very old thread, with what might be useful content for other mbrs on this forum.

Please note: Due to the topic and the content on this whole thread, about 90% of the posts need a ***SEVERE TRIGGER WARNING ***

** Trigger warning, I will try to be vague, but will likely fail ***

I have been on both sides of this issue - as child of a parent, as student (Catholic nun teacher disciplinarian) and as a parent. I came to the conclusion that I must defy my husband and refuse to spank ever again. Period.

I happen to agree that spanking is abuse. Period. It is harmful to the physical, psychological and emotional health of a child. (Bold added by Blueberry)

Time out DOES work if applied consistently and in proper proportion to the misbehavior (lying, hitting another, stealing). For the same reasons restriction works for most teenagers. Most human beings, especially as children, want and need social time with parents and peers. When that is limited due to a child's behavior, they are learning two healthy lessons. 1) Nobody enjoys being around someone who acts out in those wrong ways. 2) While in time-out or restriction, the child AND the adult get to calm down and decide on better ways to communicate so this doesn't happen again.

I like the idea that the adult gets time to calm down as well. Unfortunately parents like mine especially M saw no reason to calm down, nor any reason to find better ways to communicate. Fortunately, nobody of their age/generation is likely to be looking after children any more. My parents did do some form of time-out with us, tho not what is understood by the term now. We would be sent to our bedrooms for the rest of the evening or for hours during the day. It was to get us out of the way, so M  had time for herself w/o us underfoot. Particularly common for me as SG. Years later M spoke about this type of punishment in general, saying it was to show children that the parent or other adult 'didn't want them'. Which sounded very harsh to me. Because it should be the behaviour the parent doesn't want, not the child. Twenty or so years ago I discovered time-out meant 1 minute per year of child's age! Not 2-3 hours for a 7yo.

** Trigger warning, I will try to be vague, but will likely fail ***

NO punishment will EVER work, though, if there is not mutual respect of personhood from BOTH participants.

What I have learned by being a parent is that a child MUST have safety and dependability. They MUST have love and a sense of worth. We, as parents have an awesome responsibility to instill these in our children. That can only be accomplished by showing respect and love to the child, and to other adults in the child's world. Earning respect can only happen after showing respect. Respect cannot be demanded. Neither can proper behavior be forced after violence.

This is the part of your post that really expresses what I wasn't given and is connected to my new realisations. wife#2, I don't think you've been on the forum for a few years now and so I don't think you'll even read this, but just in case you do, I just want to say that your post here is/was so meaningful to me that I've always remembered the rough content.

*** TW ***   CPA + CSA


The sp_ _ _ ing word triggers me terribly, viscerally and that's still the case, so I haven't written it out. As a child I felt degraded and humiliated by this punishment. It was kind of mixed up with CSA too, but even w/o that I might have felt degraded and humiliated, idk. Anyway, feeling degraded and humiliated didn't disappear magically. It remained with me long past the age where this punishment was meted out. I think I might have been 10yo the last time I was punished that way. Bar a clip on the year at 14yo, but that didn't have CSA mixed in. So as an adult I might be standing there in FOO and due to some word or topic in conversation (mostly brought by M but also occasionally by F), I'd dissociate or be desperately trying not to dissociate and I'd still feel the humiliation or degrading feelings and be viscerally aware of the particular body part. Ugh!  

My progress is realising that my parents especially M broke the relationship between me and them by their chosen type of punishment, so it was up to them to do relationship repair! They needed to bring me back into the family, they needed to NOT do this type of punishment again because it was abusive and would mean they would just keep breaking the relationship. That last bit would've been impossible for them, but it just slipped out. However, they certainly needed to forgive me and bring me back into the family, whereas they just expected me to get over it and pretend nothing had happened as well as to ignore the sniggering from B1, who was often the one who'd got me in trouble to begin with.

It was abusive, they broke the relationship between us. I needed a different form of punishment, if I needed punishment at all. Often I was punished for objecting to my brother's treatment of me or for saying "No" to him. I shouldn't have been punished for that. But it was me who did relationship repair the best I could though it should have been my parents. Mostly I just continued with them as I was meant to and bottled up the hurt and degraded feelings, and felt ashamed into adulthood about the visceral memories. 

*** End of TW ***

I remember once being very rude to my grandmother, in her eyes. I hadn't intended it that way at all but she was hurt and probably angry and anyway I was in my mid-teens by then, so I apologised and she burst into tears, said I wasn't "a terrible granddaughter at all" and the relationship was repaired in that moment. I think she even hugged me. (There was no corporal punishment involved, this incident occurred to me on the topic of relationship repair.)