[Andyman73]

Sorry, 'win' was an insensitive word to use in that context. I hope you know what I meant to say anyway.

Feeling minimised was so hard for me because my parents minimised when I complained about certain things being done to me. They'd see a lot of what happened to people like you and Elphanigh as "real abuse" - they implied and even said that when I was growing up. Whereas what they did to me or allowed others to do they saw as "part of growing up" / "that's life" Or they said "some therapist has been putting ideas in your head" etc.

Yes, I do know what you meant, and your word use of "win" was also fine.  Really.

The only thing I can honestly say I think my parents minimized in me, was my memories. They were always telling me I was wrong. Always.

[Phoebes]

Yep I'm pretty sure you originally started this thread after my thread on physical abuse where I said something about the difference between "beating" and "just" spanking. (I remember from a while back. I totally agree with you btw. It was just a difference that the older generation seems to make in trying to excuse their behavior.

In fact, I'm adamantly opposed to any kind of uninvited contact. It seems I was still pretty foggy there for a while trying to figure stuff out, thinking "maybe they didn't realize" the effect they were having. Now I know it doesn't MATTER what they thought. Now I have no tolerance for the ENTITLEMENT some people feel to hit, smack, poke, prod, whip, spank, push, shove, shave, grab, grope, fondle, or otherwise initiate some sort of entitled contact. Since there has still been no change in attitude, I'm still NC because there is still no recognition or amends for a lifetime of unwanted contact.

About a year ago I got a "heartfelt" letter from my uNm who I was NC for over a year with. The only mention of this area, which I have always thought she was remorseful for but just didn't know how to show it, was that she said she only did what was done to her, and she thought she needed to "discipline" me so I would know how to treat people. That's it. Is that not the same as blaming me, and her parents, for her treatment of me? A gaslight of the gaslight. ICK  Mind you, I was a super quiet, always respectful, loving and kind little kid. I tiptoed around and was "perfect" in the sense I would never not "mind" an adult. I remember lots of rage and out of control episodes happening and I didn't know what was going on or why. Anyway, that letter sort of confirmed the NC moving forward.

[Blueberry]

About a year ago I got a "heartfelt" letter from my uNm who I was NC for over a year with. The only mention of this area, which I have always thought she was remorseful for but just didn't know how to show it, was that she said she only did what was done to her, and she thought she needed to "discipline" me so I would know how to treat people.

ummmm, does that mean you were meant to learn that this "discipline" was how to treat people, smaller and less able to defend themselves than you??

I like you as a little kid didn't always know what was going on or why. As in "What did I do to unleash this??" I can't give myself all the descriptors you give yourself, but I do know I tried so hard to be 'good' but I couldn't stop crying and I couldn't stop quarrelling with my older brother, for which I (as younger kid) was always deemed at fault. No surprise there since I am SG but I didn't understand that then obviously. These two 'crimes' were what led to this type of discipline, which word I can't even write without triggering myself.

[Blueberry]

In fact, I'm adamantly opposed to any kind of uninvited contact. ......Now I know it doesn't MATTER what they thought. Now I have no tolerance for the ENTITLEMENT some people feel to hit, ..... push, shove, shave, grab, grope, fondle, or otherwise initiate some sort of entitled contact.

Thanks for putting these words and phrases out there "uninvited contact" "ENTITLEMENT" to do all that stuff whether it's hitting, shoving or fondling. That's why it's all abuse.

[Phoebes]

Yeah, we were just sitting ducks. I guess I'm understanding "why" they did what they did- because they were malignant narcissists brought on by things that happened to them, that they never have recognized or addressed. I've spent a long time in reaction to that, fleas, fog, narcissistic traits myself..it's pretty eye-opening to see it all for what it is. And this sort of egregious abuse is just that. They could have changed it, they could have done better than was done to them. I don't see why they don't TRY to even be slightly different. This has finally sunk in as THE reason it's important to remain NC. There's just no good reason to subject myself to their line of thinking anymore. I treat myself better now.

[BlancaLap]

Yeah, we were just sitting ducks. I guess I'm understanding "why" they did what they did- because they were malignant narcissists brought on by things that happened to them, that they never have recognized or addressed. I've spent a long time in reaction to that, fleas, fog, narcissistic traits myself..it's pretty eye-opening to see it all for what it is. And this sort of egregious abuse is just that. They could have changed it, they could have done better than was done to them. I don't see why they don't TRY to even be slightly different. This has finally sunk in as THE reason it's important to remain NC. There's just no good reason to subject myself to their line of thinking anymore. I treat myself better now.

Well said! (¡Bien dicho!)

[Andyman73]

About a year ago I got a "heartfelt" letter from my uNm who I was NC for over a year with. The only mention of this area, which I have always thought she was remorseful for but just didn't know how to show it, was that she said she only did what was done to her, and she thought she needed to "discipline" me so I would know how to treat people.

ummmm, does that mean you were meant to learn that this "discipline" was how to treat people, smaller and less able to defend themselves than you??

I like you as a little kid didn't always know what was going on or why. As in "What did I do to unleash this??" I can't give myself all the descriptors you give yourself, but I do know I tried so hard to be 'good' but I couldn't stop crying and I couldn't stop quarrelling with my older brother, for which I (as younger kid) was always deemed at fault. No surprise there since I am SG but I didn't understand that then obviously. These two 'crimes' were what led to this type of discipline, which word I can't even write without triggering myself.

I was the oldest, and the only one to get CPA too. My younger brother, 4 at the time, even did things to get me in trouble, without realizing the scope of what he was doing. There never was questions asked, if something had happened, or even the had the potential to happen, I was pre-emptively beaten. He hit me with a toy one time, which broke on my head, and after getting the standard overly excessive beating punishment, had to go into my piggy bank to replace his toy that he broke over my head.

[Phoebes]

Andyman- I'm so sorry-that makes me angry for you. I hope those people don't get any of your time now. I can also relate with similar things with my cousin and sister. It was just ALL about the narcissist proving they have control to the other adults, so they can feel worthy. The worst thing that could happen to them is for them to lose their control over someone else. I remember many times, if abuse happened in provate and I was banished to my room, I could hear my mom out the window telling the neighbor how she had whipped me, along with a lie/twisted version of the story, with an adamant "she KNOWS i have the CONTROL." The neighbor seemed to buy right into it with "yeah, you gotta show 'em who's boss!" I really loathe these people who take advantage of their power to abuse. Loathe.

[Jazzy]

Whoa... so TW like the rest.

I don't want to go in to much detail, but I designed "correctional rods" for my parents to "spank" me with. You know, sanded the wood down, and burned designs and words in to it to make it look nicer. I was always taught this was a good thing, their way of making sure I turn out right.

It's since been made illegal here, but there seems to be a strong attitude of it still being okay. I'm having a hard time just thinking about claiming this is abuse. Does anyone have advice, or can they share about how they've become more confident dealing with this? I'm not even sure how much of the problem is me, and how much is the society.

[BlancaLap]

I'm not even sure how much of the problem is me, and how much is the society.

I would say it is 0% you, 100% society

[Libby12]

A number of years before I went NC with my FOO,  although looking back,  I was starting to come OOTF,  my nm very cheerfully said "Well,  I used to hit you, and it never did you any harm!"  I was shocked that she admitted it but I see that her admission (she is never wrong and never apologises) showed how she truly believed what she said.  After all, any marks and bruises faded.  As she never accepted that I had any emotions,  she never harmed them.  For me, it didn't matter if it hurt, and I don't remember the sensation but, my goodness,  decades later, I still remember the emotional pain these beatings caused.  I was powerless,  shamed and blamed and had to grovel for forgiveness for what I had forced her to do.  BTW,  I never got that forgiveness, it was just added to the ever-growing list of all of the awful things I did to my nm, because I didn't love her as she demanded to be loved. 

So yes, spanking is abuse to me, but spanking by a disordered parent is so many more layers of abuse and those are what did the damage to me.

Sorry for the rant! 

[Jazzy]

That sounds terrible Libby! Twisting things like that so she appears the victim is really messed up. You put it very well by saying it was more layers of abuse.

Thanks for sharing, and please don't apologize!

[Blueberry]

Twisting things like that so she appears the victim is really messed up. You put it very well by saying it was more layers of abuse.

 

I don't think your post is a "rant" and even if it were, you certainly don't need to apologise for it!

[Phoebes]

Libby-perfectly said. I feel the exact same way, and my mom has said almost the exact same thing, multiple times. I've always been confused/gaslighted when she said these things..nodding my head..of course, uh huh..it's always been hard to call it for what it is in the moment because of all the gaslighting. It really does define how they truly feel doesn't it. You don't get feelings, and I get to hit and say what I want to feel sadistically powerful. More times than I can count. Hugs to you..wish some times we could all talk in person or hang out by a campfire and enjoy the peace and know we all get it.

[Three Roses]

wish some times we could all talk in person or hang out by a campfire and enjoy the peace and know we all get it.

I was thinking this earlier today - in my mind's eye, I could see us all at The Healing Porch, enjoying hanging out together and doing as we pleased. Sitting by a fire, alone or with someone; reading a book or listening to music; playing frisbee and volleyball. And because it's a place of miracles, I could run and play too! And I started to wonder what would happen if all our sweet, innocent inner children showed up to play with each other....