Letting go of imaginary conversations?

[a_bunny]

A pattern for me: Someone says or does something to me that makes me feel invalidated/disrepsected, and I get triggered by it. I find it difficult to let go of it, and I keep replaying what happened in my mind, sometimes rewriting what happened so I'd express back what I was really feeling, or maybe imagining what I'd say to the person in the future. I don't want to keep thinking about this at all, I want to move on, and it's especially a problem for me at night, because it can cause me to lose a lot of sleep. I'll feel very tired, nod off, but then keep jerking back awake all night, plagued with thoughts about the incident.

I wanted to know if anyone had any ideas for how to soften the reaction and let the mind and body let go of these thoughts and imaginary conversations. I want to also mention that I've been to a lot of therapy, including DBT, and have lots of skills for general relaxation and dealing with negative emotion, but it often feels like all the yoga/meditation/CBT/various other skills in the world are not enough to fight against this strong response that takes over my body and mind.

All I just want is to be heard and validated by the other person, but in many cases, this is impossible because the other person isn't capable.

If anyone is curious, the current situation I'm dealing with happened on Friday (2 days ago). I'm a female engineer, and I have a male coworker who constantly asks if I need help, tries to explain things to me that I already know, and tries to "correct" my work before even fully understanding what I did and why. He does not even specialize in my area of engineering, so the knowledge he offers is general and theoretical, and often not applicable to what I'm doing. After he caught my frustration with this once last week, he actually apologized for overstepping, but then on Friday, he was back to offering help when I didn't need help. It makes me feel that my level of knowledge and experience is being totally invalidated. He's not a terrible person and I think I could maybe even talk to him about it, but if I decide to do that, I would want to just worry about it when I do it, not feel like it's constantly in the back of my mind, ruining my weekend and keeping me up at night.

I'm interested to hear any thoughts and ideas, thanks in advance.

[Candid]

I keep replaying what happened in my mind, sometimes rewriting what happened so I'd express back what I was really feeling, or maybe imagining what I'd say to the person in the future.

I do this, too, but I hone it to a riposte I'm happy with and let it go.

The work situation you describe is a tough one. I've been in that position as well, where someone assumes an air of superiority and everything they say and do reflects how much better they are than you.

My only suggestion is that you try a broken-record response with him. "Thank you, Fred, I can't imagine why I didn't think of that", saying the same words the same way every time, then going about your business. It sounds as though he's deliberately putting you down (maybe he feels threatened?) so he's unlikely to miss the sarcasm.

[radical]

Hi and welcome a_Bunny.

As far as the situation with your co-worker  is concerned, this is something you need to  find some kind of a solution to, imo.  It's is not okay for other people to make themselves feel smart, superior, powerful, useful, important etc. by making us feel stupid, inferior, powerless, useless and unimportant.  No wonder your well-being and sleep are suffering, if you are having to regularly contend with this behviour in a situation you can't escape.

There are two websites I know of that provide brilliant scripts and information for dealing with difficult situations like this: 'Captain Awkward' and 'Ask a Manager'.  If you go through the topics, I think you will find some expert advice in response to questions about problems very similar to your's.  If you find something very similar in CA, aslo read the discussion, because there is a whole community of people with valuable life experience, sharing strategies.

The other part is something close to my heart-  it often feels like all the yoga/meditation/CBT/various other skills in the world are not enough to fight against this strong response that takes over my body and mind.

I spent nearly a year tormented by a situation that caused me huge pain and this is exactly what I found.  I felt "fobbed-off" by being told to use such strategies for my feelings and unmanageable thoughts which I couldn't 'let go' of, day or night.  They didn't work and it wasn't for lack of trying. This was an additional form of invalidation for me.  The answer I finally found was neuro-biological.  I became dangerously suicidal in not just feeling overwhelmed by the torment (and that word is not hyperbole) but by not being allowed to even talk about the feelings and situation that triggered them.  It was damaging in itself so be so hurt, and additionally blamed because the so-called cure didn't work for me.

One of the things I came to understand for myself, was the reason that I felt continually invalidated and discounted.   In having been de-selfed by abuse, I lost myself when I was with other people.  The situation that brought things to a crisis was the result of a lifetime of escalating self-abandonment.  I needed to change how I experienced myself, and how I responded to interpersonal discrediting and abusive behaviour. No amount of attending to my breath was ever going to provide a solution.  Even if the strategy worked, I would continue to be snowed with more and more painful, destabilising situations that I would need to 'breathe into'.  Which isn't a solution.

I hope you can find a solution that works for you - for both problems.

[Wife#2]

This has been a challenge for me. It filters into my home life as well, causing disruption for my husband and me.

Finally, hubby BEGGED me to leave work at work and *be* home with him when I'm home. I try, but those conversations still replay - like you said, as they actually happen, as I wish they'd happened and how I hope I can be strong enough to make them happen.

If it helps to know you are not alone, then I can assure you - YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

I ended up confronting the invalidating coworkers (both times, scared to death I'd end up fired for standing up for myself). Both times, I ended up in Personnel, but both times, my complaint was validated. Both times, I felt vindicated by the HR director. True, I got drug tested both times, too (because I'm usually seen as a happy calm person, but those days, I shouted). My big recommendation - if you do confront, don't shout. LOL

BIG HUGS - that stinks and I so understand EXACTLY how that feels. It isn't one really ugly statement, it's a series of little undercuts, little invalidations, little doubts. I didn't have to consider the sexist angle, though - both of the bullies I faced down were fellow women. Yes, I do consider that kind of constant needling to be a form of bullying. It does sound to me as if you're dealing with a sexist bully. He's just nice enough about it that you are doubting if he means it. If it's been going on more than a week, he means it. And, I'd be willing to bet he has an agenda (get overheard enough times 'correcting' you and you not stopping it - that's the proof that you are accepting his 'authority' over you).

I wish I could tell you how best to fix this situation. I believe, in my humble opinion, that your human resources director may need to get involved. Before heading down that path, if you choose it, practice what you're going to say a lot. I know, re-hashers do that ALL the time! But, speaking up for yourself doesn't come naturally to you, so you'll likely react with blushes, stutters and other signs that we know are distress, but others can write off as lying, exaggerating or being 'overly emotional'. (Ugh, I hate that term).

MORE BIG HUGS! I hate that you're going through this. I can say that, on the other side of the confrontation, life is much calmer and I do find myself needing to re-hash conversations far less often.

[LaurelLeaves]

Next time he asks if you need help, tell him "When I need an Engineering 101 refresher course, I'll call ya."   

Its sexism, and should not be put up with.  I've dealt with a lot of it in my life. 

[a_bunny]

Thanks for all the replies. I probably should have replied earlier and said, I'm not really looking so much for advice on how to fix the situation, but more about the imaginary conversations and letting go of those thoughts. It's like radical said, both problems need a solution. But actually dealing with the coworker, while unpleasant and stress-inducing to do, I know *how* to do at least. I would use the interpersonal skills from DBT and talk to him directly. While I haven't done it yet, I know it is an option and something I'm very willing to do if it comes to it.

The other piece of it -- calming the mind and body down from the anxious thoughts of the conversations that happened or might have happened but didn't -- that's the piece I didn't even know *how* to solve. It's interesting, one of the main reasons why I was prompted to post about it is because of the insomnia piece. I feel like I can tolerate uncomfortable thoughts and anxiety, but when it interferes with my sleep, then the consequences become unbearable. I'm really not good with sleep deprivation, which is unfortunate because I need a lot of sleep ideally, and I have insomnia so easily, due to trauma and anxiety.

Anyway, I started seeing a sleep therapist a couple of weeks ago who specializes in patients with PTSD who have insomnia. I told her about my concern about how getting triggered -- by anything, not just this specific manifestation of anxiety -- will affect my ability to sleep. I told her how I do meditation and breathing and all this stuff, but it often feels like it's not enough. She agreed, just breathing alone isn't enough to calm down from the stress response, which was validating to me. (And I just want to SCREAM when people tell me to just "let it go" or "just relax" when stuff comes up that is triggering to me -- AUGH. So there, you were wrong, everyone who ever said that to me! But that's a whole rant for another thread...) She gave me a little device that tracks your pulse and guides you into deep breathing in order to trigger the relaxation response, but there is more to it than just breathing. It's kind of hard to explain. Anyway, I'm supposed to practice using that and then maybe I will get better at it.

But anyway, I have slept better since sleep therapy started. It made me realize, a lot of why these triggering incidents have so much effect on me is not only the initial anxious/angry reaction, but then the loss of sleep, and then all the effects from that afterwards. It's like a domino effect. If I could still sleep well even after being triggered, everything would be a lot more manageable. It's made me see this in a whole other perspective. I think that once I get a better handle on my sleep, I'll be in a much better position to manage the rest of my anxiety.

Also, I want to say thank you once again, because it just feels good knowing I can post about this and others know what it's like to experience what I'm going through. Not that I'm glad that you suffer with it too, but we can all support each other this way and know we are not alone. Most of the people in my life just don't get it (as I mentioned above, with the "let it go" advice and such). *hugs to everyone*

[sanmagic7]

hey, a_bunny,

repeating conversations, inventing conversations, going over and over in my head what i wish i would have said, what i wish i could say, what i want to say has been tormenting me and my sleep for years and years!  my latest has been thinking of my ex's funeral, and how much i'd love to get up to the podium and tell everyone what a buttwipe he really was, cuz all they ever saw was this guy who was an entertainer (i did get a suggestion for that - to have a mock funeral, stand up in front of pretend people and say it all out loud.  i am going to do that, see if it helps)

anyway, i totally hear you about the 'let it go', 'leave it be', kinds of things i've been told.  don't you think that if i could i would?  that's not how i'm wired, tho, and i have to find another way.  2 things that have helped a bit have been the idea of 'revisiting' (from van der kolk's book, 'the body keeps the score') these people who have traumatized me, who i've eliminated from my life, and to whom i've not gotten any sense of validation or understanding for what went on between us.  i know i won't ever get that, logically - it's the nature of the beast - but it's an old thought pattern that if i only said things 'the right way' i could get the idea across to them so they'd understand.

so, 'revisiting' is putting myself in harm's way over and over, basically.  it does me no good, it solves nothing, and i come away from it tired, frustrated, and unsatisfied.  i'm hurting myself by doing it.  to stop it, or at least lessen it, i've been practicing saying 'STOP!' whenever i catch myself doing it.  or telling myself that i'm revisiting again.  often that will break that awful cycle of thought, and i mentally look for something positive to think about, or do some repetitive relaxation stuff starting at my toes and working my way up my body.  that's helped on several occasions.

the other thing that's helped me is when i saw the movie 'a beautiful mind'.  our hero had hallucinations and he learned to live with them by acknowledging them, saying good-by to each imaginary person, and finally ignoring them by basically telling them that they are not on the menu for him to indulge in anymore.  that was very powerful to me - a mind over mind dynamic.  and a true story to boot - he went on to win a nobel prize.  so i knew it was do-able.

this has also helped me a lot.  when the conversations threaten, i mentally tell them they're not on the menu anymore, and i can usually stop them.  i'd say it works at least 75% of the time, while revisiting works pretty much the other 25%.  it's not been perfect, but so much better than it had been.

i do hope you find something that works for you and gives you some relief.  these mental conversations have been horrible, i know.  best to you with this. 

[Contessa]

This is a very good post a_bunny. I agree, the calming strategies work for me when I am already calm. But when the trigger comes, forget it.

Going to keep thinking on this. In my mind, the bottom line is stopping the thoughts, not working with them... just realised the first line of this paragraph, ha.

I do like Candid's broken record suggestion and think there could be some validity to it. Although it is a strategy for dealing directly with *Fred*, to me its might be a good way to shut the door on those thoughts beginning, as per Sanmagic's beautiful mind.

I have to admit I do say "thanks i'll keep that in mind" as a non aggressive and diffusive mechanism. This way I can ignore, and even stop listening to what they are saying, let them talk to themselves for a bit before I ask questions about their own work to take their focus off mine, do my work my way, and pretend I weighed up their suggestions if there is a follow up.

It does seem like a long drawn out process, but to me, in my experience, if they think they are controlling my work, it is in fact me that is controlling their behaviour. Over time they should leave you alone, and if they leave you alone there's no trigger for the thoughts.

I don't know a_bunny. My brain has been in a complete whirr for years and i'm just remembering the old strategies I used to use pre-trauma. They have been working for me lately to quell the over analyses, and I am now back in control. Remembering as I write.

So bottom line, with everything I just said, feel free to "keep it in mind"

[a_bunny]

I needed to change how I experienced myself, and how I responded to interpersonal discrediting and abusive behaviour.

I forgot, I had meant to reply to this point as well. This reminded me of something that had been helpful to me. I realized that when I'm having any kind of anxious trigger response, the repeated conversations in this case, there is an emotion driving that response, and an emotion that responds to it as well. The imaginary conversations are most likely prompted by fear, so I would try to talk to that fear inside myself, ask it what it is feeling and why, thank it for trying to protect me from some perceived threat, and reassure it that it is safe. The response to the imaginary conversations might be some sort of frustration, or perhaps stress over losing sleep, so I would talk to that part also, in a similar way, and reassure it that it's OK to have the thoughts, there's nothing wrong with me, and validate that it's uncomfortable to go through.

Validation is such a big issue for me. Something I try to remind myself is that when I feel invalidated by others, and I'm in a trigger response because my need of validation isn't getting met, the most important thing I can do is validate myself.

the other thing that's helped me is when i saw the movie 'a beautiful mind'.  our hero had hallucinations and he learned to live with them by acknowledging them, saying good-by to each imaginary person, and finally ignoring them by basically telling them that they are not on the menu for him to indulge in anymore.  that was very powerful to me - a mind over mind dynamic.  and a true story to boot - he went on to win a nobel prize.  so i knew it was do-able.

OMG, this movie really resonated for me as well!! I actually forgot about the specifics of how he said goodbye to each imaginary person, that is so powerful. Thank you so much for reminding me of this. I will try this.

Again, thanks for everyone's replies, it is helpful!

[biggerfish2]

Hi a_bunny. I totally hear you. And similar to you, I've been in years of good help and therapy, and done well with it. However, only this year did I learn how to respond in the moment. And in learning how to do that, the nighttime replaying of conversations in my mind has largely disappeared. In other words, I had to learn the skills of standing up kindly to bullies and difficult people. I thought I was too intimidated to learn, but I learned.

All it took was watching a few youtube videos by a guy named Dan O'Connor. This guy is soooo helpful. Once I started imitating what he says to do, I became empowered in a new way. Here's one example, but look around on youtube for the videos by Dan O'Connor that suit you best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuvNW1RnRjg

I hope this is helpful to you

[Three Roses]

And welcome to you, biggerfish2! Thanks for the video.