Gender Roles - childhood abuse?

[LaurelLeaves]

I'm the type who likes to throw things out there, and see what others think.  I tend to say things as if I'm right, but really, I'm asking you if it sounds right.  So here goes:

I really think that ALL gender roles & rules are child abuse.  We learn them when we are children, and we grow up to have shame about them that sticks with us all our lives.  Even when we know where it comes from, we can't shake it.  Sure, we can be proud of the things that we're good at, but that doesn't make for the shame.  In some instances, debilitating shame.  In some instances, shame that turns itself around and harms others.   And it harms both genders in term of physical health and relationships.   It is societal abuse... it is oppression.

[sanmagic7]

hey, laurelleaves,

i've watched documentaries about this, and belong to a feminist book club that discusses this topic frequently.  i haven't had the experience myself, but i have to say that from all that i've seen and heard, the idea of gender identity being forced on a child would seem to go under the heading of abuse.

i know that there are many people out there who believe a child isn't old enough until adulthood to 'know' their gender if it doesn't correspond to the biological gender of the individual (if then!), and the idea of allowing a child to choose goes against an intrinsic belief system that, yep, i agree, is foisted on people by an unforgiving, unaccepting society that sees difference as something to shun and shame.

much of the same thing has gone on with mental illness, more so in the past, although a lot of people still don't want to admit or accept it - either in themselves or others.  thankfully, that has slowly been changing, going to therapy is more accepted than it was, and people are getting the help they need more easily and with less stigma attached.

i'm hoping gender identity will continue to break through the barriers the way mental health issues have.  i was shamed as a 14-yr. old by my parents because i couldn't cope with the loneliness i was feeling at the time.  not only didn't they help with soothing or comforting words/gestures, they made it much worse for me, and i went on with my life using horribly neg. coping skills that got me here today. 

so, here's to change.  none of us should have to be shamed for anything within ourselves just because it's different or not understood.  the more people who choose to educate themselves on gender identity, the better off our entire society will be.   i admire your courage, laurelleaves.  you and everyone else who is battling gender identity issues are forerunners and inspirations to everyone out there who is still finding and fighting their way through such a tangled jungle  of the 'stigma' put on them by the societal 'others'. 

i can't imagine what you must have gone through, what you are still going through.  best to you with all this.  my heart is with you.  big hug.

[meursault]

I agree with you, anything that shames or bullies someone into being someone they are not is abusive.  Moreso with children, even, IMO.

[LaurelLeaves]

hey, laurelleaves,

i've watched documentaries about this, and belong to a feminist book club that discusses this topic frequently.  i haven't had the experience myself, but i have to say that from all that i've seen and heard, the idea of gender identity being forced on a child would seem to go under the heading of abuse.

You are very nice Sanmagic, and I enjoyed your post on affirmation of gender identity.  It was abuse to grow up in the wrong gender.  I wonder in amazement at those people who think affirming a transgender child is abuse!  It's the other way around.

But that was not what I meant in this post.  What I was trying to explain is, that we ALL (you & me) internalized gender roles as babies.  We all learned how we "should be".  And that develops into shame when we can't live up to how we are told we should be.   Frankly, we don't like to think about shame, because it's shameful to have shame, but we all have it... many people are just in denial of having it.

Lets just ponder an arbitrary woman.  This arbitrary woman is good at math, and is physically strong.  She is equally adept at computers and a skill saw.  She also bakes a mean pie.  And she like pearls.  She's not very good at nurturing, so she only has one child. 

Now look at the gender roles that are for woman: Not good at math, Not physically strong, Cooks, Is Pretty, And wants lot of children.   

Because of what she is told she "should be", she will probably be proud of her baking skills.  But she will probably be ashamed that she's not very nurturing.  And she will probably be ridiculed for being good at math and being strong from those who fear her... which could lead to shame from being different.   

Gender roles cause shame the same way in men.  There is no wrong way to be a girl.  A lot of people would agree with that statement.  But less people would agree that there is no wrong way to be a boy, so maybe there is more shame for men.  We should be teaching all the babies that there is no wrong way to a be a girl or boy.

In fact I can imagine a world were ALL we learn as babies is that we should ALL grow up to be good human beings anyway that feels right to us... and not learn gender roles at all.

[LaurelLeaves]

I agree with you, anything that shames or bullies someone into being someone they are not is abusive.  Moreso with children, even, IMO.

Yup.
All us in here know: what's done to you as a child, stays with you forever.

[sanmagic7]

i completely agree with that picture of the ideal world you speak of.  we are all human beings first and foremost, and that's what's most important - be the best human you can be whatever that means for you.

i guess i missed the gist of your original post, and i'm sorry about that.  yes, we are all shamed in some way or another for not living up to expectations, be it gender or otherwise.  'what's wrong with you' 'you can't do that' and the rest of that kind of b.s.  the shame of not being accepted for who you are, who you know you are, or who you want to be.

the idea that females are less shamed - well, one thing that always came to mind is that women are allowed to wear 'male' type clothes and it's totally accepted.  however, if a man wants to wear 'female' type clothes, that's a different story, indeed.

keep being brave, laurelleaves.  you are a leader.  it's great!

[lexx]

LaurelLeaves,

While it can certainly be part of abuse, I don't think it is automatically true for everyone. Not everyone grows up with shame about their gender.

Most if not all people do experience shame at some point in their lives, but it's pretty diverse what exactly it is for any given person.

I am intersex, and I'm learning that I'm okay with both sides of me. A lot of people like me aren't that way. For them it's maybe even extra important to define their gender very clearly.

For me it was important to learn to be okay with being in between.

Loosing a certain amount of shame and personal inhibition towards gender, sexuality, and kink had and has everything to do with that.. but that doesn't mean it's like that for everyone, or even most. It is just true for me.

I'm not the only one, of course not, but for some gender might be a trait they hang on to.

I've known some gay folks who had issues with acceptance who freaked out when they found out I questioned my gender. For them it had taken time and effort to accept they were attracted to people of the same gender (and not of the opposite) so they had a very strong sense of a binary gender.. It's more important to their sense of self. So they reacted pretty harshly to me blurring those lines.. They told me all the same stuff their non accepting parents had thrown at them, and they didn't even see the irony.. (Not that straight people are per definition accepting of course, but most of them have no idea.. I should probably mention here that I'm a recovering introvert lol)

My oldest son is also intersex.

There was a lot of push right after birth to do surgeries because it would be "kinder to do it while they were too young to remember".

As much issues as I had trying to define myself, I found it really hard to know what to do.

I went online and came across plenty of people who had hated they'd had the surgeries, and plenty who were just as upset that they hadn't.

I ended up deciding against the surgery, knowing that there was no way to know for sure if it would be the right choice. I felt I had no right to make that decision for him, and that should he be upset with me later, at least I could explain why I had made the choice I made.

As it turns out, my son is very happy with the choice I made.

I tried to raise him to know that no matter what, he'd know I love him. No matter if I agree with everything, or understand it all.. that above all else he's my child, and I love him.

I can't and won't protect him from all consequences of his actions or other people's, but that I would love him anyway.

I've written "him" in all of this. It makes no difference to me if that would be any other descriptor.

Did I raise him without shame? Well, no. I'm not perfect nor omnipotent. I believe I raised him to know I love him no matter what though. Somehow though, he managed to become someone who can laugh at himself and mean it. We can probably not avoid all shame, but that doesn't mean we have to let it control us.

Maybe what I learned from my kids is that the trick isn't so much avoiding shame, but teaching our children to overcome it..

[Andyman73]

I don't understand any of this. I also don't recall being made to do anything because of being born a boy. I do know this, though. I do know how to do manly things. I can cook and sew and do flowers too. But if you ask me, and I honestly answer....do I feel like a man? I don't know, what that feel like? Been abused by men and women and boys and girls. Wife been abusing me for almost 21 years.  What man feel like? I know how to be me...a man shaped person. Wife says I'm not a real man anyway.  Says many ugly things, maybe that what I am. Ugly things.

[sanmagic7]

andy, may i respectfully note that you are hardly 'ugly things'.  your warmth, kindness, concern, and caring are as far away from 'ugly things' as could possibly be.  you are a man i hold in high regard.

lexx, i give you so much credit for your decisions.  having our kids know they are loved is, i believe, the very most important.  they don't expect us to be perfect, they can tolerate our foibles, but the one love that we all desperately need comes from our parents.  well done.

loving hugs all around.

[Andyman73]

Sanmagic, thank you.  A bit of an EF moment when I was thinking about that.  I'm still getting used to the idea that all those things really are my life experiences. 
It seems to me, as observed by you and others, that I treat others here, the opposite of how I have been treated al my life.
Thank you for believing in me. 💐🌸🌼🌺

[DecimalRocket]

Tsk. Tsk. I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to join in.

Gender feels like such a strange concept to me. I rarely ever mention my gender on the internet until it's required to understand my situation. Always referring myself to a "person" rather than a man or a woman. Always referring my younger myself as a kid or a child — rather than a little boy or a little girl.

Other than that — the idea of being a gender — one gender, seems alien. Strange. Surreal. When I'm called one of these things, there's a weird disconnect — a lack of recognition of it being myself in being called "He" or "She".

It doesn't distress me enough to cause major depression or anxiety, but still. . . Weird.

[Cookido]

I agree. My whole childhood was confusing because I couldn't understand my gender, it was awful and still I sometimes question and compare myself to others, especially when it comes to oppression and discrimination.

Today I view myself as someone without social gender. I am not a gender, but a person.

[Cookido]

DecimalRocket I do the same as you, I never mention my gender online. You also made me aware that I think the same as you when I think about myself in childhood - as a kid, and not as a boy or a girl. I never thought about that before but it's interesting, thank you for your post!

I do really dislike being called a girl or a woman. I usually relate it to oppression. I won't ask people to call me something else, too much effort.

Very interesting thread and as always on OOTS, a very open-minded and nice community.

[Andyman73]

I never really thought about gender, as far as identifying myself. But I feel that for me it's very important that everyone knows I'm male. I think some of my things would be impossible to understand if my gender wasn't known. They wouldn't make any sense. I want people to know that I'm one of those cryptids people hear about, but don't believe actually exist....adult male victim of adult abuse. It's not so bad here, but on the other online community, I definitely feel like most there, don't know how to take me. Or what to say to me. There aren't a lot of men there, and most stay exclusively in the men's only forum. So a lot of my posts get ignored, or read only, but no responses.

I get it, I really do. Society only accepts men as grown victims of CSA/R and CPA, And childhood DV. But not as adult victims of adult abuse...unless gay, then it's socially acceptable. But not really as a hetero man...especially if abuser is female.  So, most of the time I defer to the women. Sometimes I agree or accept what they're saying, but I go out of my way to minimize my experiences, so I don't come across as trying to claim anything that I'm not allowed to claim. Been accused of that, a few times over the years.

[Rowan]

These roles are little more than a decisive tool to split society into an us and them situation, which is also the reason why there is so much collective angst around the 'other them' those that don't fit either of the preselected boxes. The echoes of being forced into a role against your wishes/desires is one of the reasons I'm here, and it's taken me a while to think what to write.

A distinct part of my challenge is that while I have no sense of self, I do have a sense of gender for situations/circumstance/activities (all very predictable and stereotypical) and I often transgress between roles, so I stand out. I'm not one, or the other, I am in someways both, and likewise in many ways neither.

As I am a good netizen, and I care about electric label land, this places me firmly in the transgender camp - in the non binary. You'd never guess from my appearance, my mannoflage is near perfect, but how I feel, and my failings to relate are hugely isolating, and i have to think about how I should engage with a situation based on expectation.

Massively draining at the best of times, regardless of the dissonance and danger that puts me in with my FOO - the bile and invective that spews from their mouths around such topics, ensures I stay in hiding.

I am the alien that your mother warned you about


Rowan