How do we know we're not borderline?

[schrödinger's cat]

Hm, in my case it comes from having been in touch with someone who displayed borderline + narcissistic behaviour. So you're right, I can't diagnose anyone, but the way she acted was absolutely out of the ordinary, it was extremely puzzling, and this right here is the only explanation I found that makes sense and DOESN'T vilify her. ("Go hence, creature of the abyss, I refute thee and thy heinous deeds! Quick, someone hand me the garlic!")

And so I read up about BPD. The reason was simply: if someone starts (figuratively speaking) hacksawing away at you out of the blue, that alone can be so damaging. I once stumbled upon this quote: "If you want to take perfect revenge, wait until your enemy has no idea why he's being destroyed - that will harm him the most." I can confirm that being attacked just out of the blue, without there being a real reason, can be extremely hurtful in and of itself. So to fix that, you then seek out explanations.

Now, maybe she's got CPTSD too, that woman. Who knows. All I know is, she's always displayed that kind of behaviour. Even as a child, she'd make up arbitrary rules that her siblings had to follow and that never applied to her. If someone had fun that didn't include her, she'd go and ruin it. (When I heard someone say that, I thought: "what a weird thing to say, they're probably just over-sensitive and blame things on that poor woman", but then I witnessed her in action, and OH BOY. Extraordinary. Just extraordinary.)

So whatever it is that she has: it's like she caught an infection when she was little and now BOOM, borderline/narcisisst-type behaviour. She has many good sides. She can be caring, she's very talented, she's got strong ideals. And being close to her is like reaching into a meat grinder. There WILL be damage done. She WILL be kind and caring one moment, and the next moment she'll insinuate that you're unnaturally cruel to her because of... no, she's not saying, not yet, it's too obvious, you should really find out by yourself. No no, she's not angry. Never angry. She's just... astonished. (And that's just the beginning. It's extreme.)

That's why I would mind being labelled as Borderline.

In that woman's case, she caught this like you catch an infection. She has it now. It's causing her distress, and I hope that she'll find her way out of it, but she has it like you have a head cold: all the time, everywhere. If you get near her, sooner or later she's going to lash out.

In my case - I'm probably not the most flawlessly socialized person on this planet, and I do have strong emotional ups and downs, and like all depressed and troubled people, I can get self-absorbed. But I know for a fact that all this wasn't there before I got traumatized, that it gets particularly bad when my CPTSD flares up, and that it kind of goes away by itself when my EFs die down. I'm self-absorbed the way you're self-absorbed when someone's just broken your leg: you're curled up and clinging to your leg and staring at it. Then, when you get better, you begin to notice your surroundings again. You begin to care.

People used to see my symptoms as a part of who I was, as a part of my character. Social anxiety - people thought I was just shy. Constant tiredness - people just thought I was boring, slow, and without "the right attitude" when it comes to sports and work and duty. Dissociation - people thought I was absent-minded, forgetful, weird. And I believed it. I believed it for years. So that's why I get angry when there's talk of labelling us with yet another thing that would make it all our own fault. Maybe it IS possible that CPTSD can create BPD in some people and/or make an existing tendency for BPD behaviour a lot worse. But as a general label - "CPTSD = BPD" - no. No. Just no. Never.

[Kizzie]

    Having been traumatized by a parent with a PD it makes a huge difference to me that I know I have CPTSD rather than BPD. 

I suspect also that there are a great many more of us that have CPTSD from parents who have a PD than have self-identified because they were not sexually or physically abused, but were emotionally abused or neglected and haven't realized just how traumatic that is to a child.  In fact, it's the core wound in child abuse/neglect.

Unfortunately, I think we will see our membership here continue to grow. 

[Trees]

About 20 years ago, I asked my wonderful psychiatrist (a rare being) if I was BPD, and she said that knowing what I had remembered about my childhood would lead her to call me PTSD instead.  So if a person does not remember their trauma, that makes them BPD?

[Kizzie]

Hi BHeart:

I hear what you're saying about not understanding the difference between BPD and CPTSD. I don't know if this will help or muddy the waters further, but FWIW here's my layperson's understanding. 

I was thinking about my own fear of rejection/abandonment and how I can distinguish my fear and behaviours from those of my M's. When something triggers my M in terms of rejection and abandonment she turns that outward in a big, big way, and rages, hurts, punishes.  And if she were asked to reflect on her behaviour and feelings she would point to others as the reason for her pain, always. Somehow along the way she lost the capacity for much if any self-reflection, for taking responsibility for herself, and for any true connection with others.  In contrast, I don't turn my pain and fear outward, I can reflect on it and I can still connect to my self and with others, even if it's a bit wobbly in form.   

If I hurt you you will see the remorse in my eyes, in my actions, you are "connecting" with me, you can see that I am in here and that I feel something. I don't get that with my M, it's as though she simply is not in there, that the essential thing that makes us human is buried so deeply under her fear and pain, I can't get to it, and she can't get to it. I may distance myself from others but my M does not have any true human connection which goes well beyond distanciong.  In the end, I would agree with the article that she experiences absolute terror of abandonment/rejection, whereas I experience fear, and because of that we react and behave differently. 

In terms of alternating idealization and devaluation of others, one day I am the Golden Child with my M, and the next I am the Scapegoat - I never know.  Sometimes it's connected to something I have done or not done, and other times it's about what my B or someone else in my FOO has done or not done.  This is something I don't do so in that way my M and (NPDB) are quite different.

Anyway, if my M and I were placed on a continuum ranging from mental health to illness she would be farther along. And I suspect there is a tipping point on the spectrum beyond which you are unable to connect to self well or at all.  While those of us who have CPTSD may come close to BPD on that continuum and share many of the symptoms, we don't pass that point whereas my M has.

So I don't know if that's helpful or not, but that's what I take away from the article and other reading I have done, and my experiences of my self and the PDs in my life.   

[Kizzie]

I was just thinking Trees that my M would always point to others as the cause of her pain, but it was connected to the present (us) and not to the past as I do.

She told us her M died quite young and her F was an alcoholic, but it never came up in terms of her feelings in the present.  She would simply recount her background in a matter of fact way. I'm not sure what if anything that means or if it's important, but your post pinged me about it.

[neenonee]

Bheart there is a book about how to handle bosses and co-workers who have personality disorders and it sounds like that's what you dealt with. Or maybe the person was just plain mean. Anyway, it's an interesting book I found in our library but I don't remember the name of it.
After reading all this I doubt that I am cptsd after all. I do lash out at people and even though I am aware it's bad and I don't want to do it, that's my natural tendency anyway. But I find it all getting worse and worse and I don't know why. I have a very nice husband who I don't deserve and I'm mean to him  fairly often though I keep vowing I won't lash out. Same with my mom who is also a bit reactive and it makes me so sad. I am not sure what to do with myself.  I am 'broken' as borderline is referred as. I feel so crazy and don't really have the money for therapy. And I work in mental health which probably isn't helping but in a way I understand them. We just bought a house a month ago and already I want to move because it's noisy here. I hate it and I'm driving my husband nuts. What support forum should I use? Is there any for just rotten crazy human beings?

[Trees]

Neenonee, I am new here myself, and I am sure the more experienced members could give you more specific support and assistance.  But, I want to ask you to stay here with us.  What you describe about your life and your feelings reminds me of a lot of times I've been through in my life.

What I can tell you for sure, for absolutely sure!, is that you are NOT "rotten" or "crazy".   I used to think that about myself, too.  Keep coming here and we will convince you that you are just another good person trying to deal with too much.

Do you have children, too?  You are already dealing with so much.

I'm so new here I still find the smiley face things confusing!  But I am sending you lots of hugs

and I am asking you to keep coming here, please.    Trees

[Kizzie]

Neeonee, I don't sense that you have BPD or you wouldn't be so hard on yourself nor would you be here. As I mentioned in my post about my M, because of her PD she would never find her way to this forum as you have.  She would not think to call herself a rotten, crazy human being because her disorder would not allow that, it shelters her from thoughts like that.

The fact that you do say these kinds of things likely means your Inner Critic is active, and along the same lines getting angry at people is likely your Outer Critic in action.  Moreover, the fact that you are concerned about your behaviour shows that you are in there, you are connected to your self, and that you do care about others.  My M does not.   If you check out the forum on Inner and Outer Critic you'll see that many of us have a pretty active Outer Critic and it is not the same thing as the type of lashing out I see in my M. She will go for the jugular and she will not apologize.  When I am angry, I do not try to take the other person down and I apologize when I have overstepped.

So I want to add my voice to Trees and say that I think you do belong here and I hope you will stay      

[neenonee]

Thanks Trees and Kizzie, I was kind of having a lousy day yesterday but I feel better today and your posts and good wishes help.   

[Kizzie]

Big one for you!   

[flookadelic]

I think there is a sense of self-awareness that runs parallel (but often crosses into CPTSD as an injury rather than an innate condition) that is absent in BPD where the identification with the disorder seems much more close, even absolute. These days I find my mind and my injured brain to be two separate entities - with my mind seeking to relate to my traumatised brain in ways that free me from it / heals it rather than hating it and attacking it. This ability to step out (when one isn't being triggered) and to relate to the condition points away from "personality disorder" and towards trauma. Basically normal psychologies going through abnormal experiences.

[Whobuddy]

That makes a lot of sense, Flook! And to add to the situation, things may have happened to us when we were so young that the traumatized brain and the mind both seemed normal to us.

[Bluevermonter]

A fond thanks to every one who posted so far.

I took a look at the video and came away with several thoughts.

The questions that he displayed on one of the slides that they asked the test subjects are questions I ought to ask any future relationship prospects.  Very powerful correlation to cptsd.

The use of brain scans ought to be part of the diagnosis of cptsd/ bpd.  It seems so straightforward.

That the brain can be retrained is also hopeful.

Who are the morons that wouldn't recognize the empirical data and allow DTD into the DSM V?  Seriously.  People should be writing letters to the APA in re their gross neglect.

Thanks all for posting here.  Great insight from all of you.

[Butterfly]

As I read through Pete Walkers book I sometimes think 'this also describes uPDm and enF' and it bothers me. Over on OOTF some of the Traits are similar to cPTSD feelings when triggered. But they aren't "traits" of a personality for someone with cPTSD, they are responses when triggered.

Sure maybe uPDm is triggered into being passive aggressive and vindictive but for what reason? When I was fully enmeshed and in the middle of a nice lunch visit with her why all of a sudden turn on me with hurtful stabbing words? That then triggered me and I spent the rest of the day curled up in a ball wrapped in a blanket. Simply cPTSD fight vs flight or fawn? I'm struggling with this at the moment.

Then I come here and read and this helped.

I'm with all of you that in the end it's really about the healing, but at the same time for me there is an important difference. BPD is a personality disorder whereas CPTSD is a stress disorder.  The former feels like a sentence of sorts (something fundamental is broken), whereas the latter refers to psychological injuries that can be healed if that makes sense.
[snip . . .]

And therein lies the biggest distinction between the BPD and CPTSD for me. She will always be punitive and vindictive when she is afraid or hurt because her personality is disordered. My personality, however, is basically intact albeit a little frayed and bent in spots, and with some developmental arrests that can be dealt with according to Mr. Walker.  I believe him when he says that all of our natural tendencies are still in there waiting to be fanned into life, whereas in PD I'm not sure that's the case.

That makes sense. If cPTSD fight personality is triggered there's something, some event, some words or action, that happens and the cPTSD fight response fires in response to the words or action. Whereas for a personality disorder this is part of who they are, their personality. There's no obvious trigger, nothing happened, nothing was said, we were all just having a nice conversation about flowers and BOOM out of the blue - attack. Why?

More than that, what distinguishes a personality disorder from a stress disorder to me is the ability to self reflect. Not once has uPDm or enF ever talked in a way that is self reflecting. I must understand her, I must understand this is how she is, I must make allowances. From the time I was born enF put this on me, a child, to fix and understand her.

I remember from the time of six years old this is what was said to me outright over and over. I needed to fix her when she was in a mood, be a good girl and make her stop, go make her happy, etc. Nothing at all regarding this grown adult should maybe work on emotional regulation. Somehow it was my fault and somehow I needed to fix it. It didn't matter I came home from school and found her this way, it was still my job to fix it. And so I lived my life, always trying to fix her when she was broken except I never knew what broke her. And who is the adult in this relationship?

Is personally disorder and cPTSD both a lack of ability to regulate emotion? Sure that sounds logical. But will a personality disordered person ever look within, self reflect enough to say 'hm what can I do different, how can I improve'. Not in my experience.

When something triggers my M in terms of rejection and abandonment she turns that outward in a big, big way, and rages, hurts, punishes.  And if she were asked to reflect on her behaviour and feelings she would point to others as the reason for her pain, always. Somehow along the way she lost the capacity for much if any self-reflection, for taking responsibility for herself, and for any true connection with others.  In contrast, I don't turn my pain and fear outward, I can reflect on it and I can still connect to my self and with others, even if it's a bit wobbly in form.   

If I hurt you you will see the remorse in my eyes, in my actions, you are "connecting" with me, you can see that I am in here and that I feel something. I don't get that with my M, it's as though she simply is not in there, that the essential thing that makes us human is buried so deeply under her fear and pain, I can't get to it, and she can't get to it. I may distance myself from others but my M does not have any true human connection which goes well beyond distanciong.  In the end, I would agree with the article that she experiences absolute terror of abandonment/rejection, whereas I experience fear, and because of that we react and behave differently. 

And this helped so much. Thank you. Sad, poignant, but so very true.

[Kizzie]

I'm glad it helped Butterfly, it really is sad for all of us involved         I think it's the reason I came to feel some compassion (which is not the same thing as forgiveness), for my NPDM, knowing that her trauma and fear were bad enough to break something inside of her.  I think the inability to self-reflect is a shield of sorts against unbearable pain and fear, and unfortunately for those of us in their path externalizing it is the only way NPDs know how to survive psychologically.

Since writing the previous post, I have done some additional reading and there is newer clinical evidence that BPD is more treatable than previously thought while NPD is still considered quite treatment resistant (and I'm not in the field, this is just based on what I've read recently).  For me this suggests something like I've outlined below; that BPD is not as far along a continuum of mental health disorders, but is past CPTSD  and before NPD:

CPTSressD----------------------Borderline PersD---------------------------Narcissistic PersD

CPTSD - self-reflection is intact or mildly impaired; treatable stress disorder; feelings turned inward
BPD -  self-reflection is moderately impaired; treatable mild-moderate personality disorder; feelings turned inward and/or outward
NPD - self-reflection is lost; moderate to extreme personality disorder which is treatment resistant; feelings turned outward

I don't know your situation Butterfly, but FWIW it sounds like your M may be past BPD and into a more pronounced PD if she reacts as she does (i.e., from a pleasant conversation about flowers into a hurling abuse at you).

Something which occurred to me as I was reading your post (and tks for this insight  ) was that if my M could not fix herself, how on earth was I as a small child and even as an adult going to do so? The most I could ever do was shore up her sagging ego and that got much too heavy and I lost more and more of myself in the process, so much so that I simply had to make a choice, her or me.  I chose me.