Emotional incest and enmeshment

[Finding My Voice]

Who here has experienced emotional incest (a parent relying on you for emotional support or fulfillment) and/or enmeshment?

Fully detaching from BPDm and getting rid of all the emotional programming is an ongoing task for me.  For anyone else struggling with this, I recommend The Emotional Incest Syndrome by Patricia Love.  The author is a therapist and experienced emotional incest during her own childhood with an alcoholic mother.

[Kizzie]

Welcome to OOTS Finding My Voice!

My father was an alcoholic and my mother suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) which meant I was trained to fulfill their emotional needs, my Ms in particular.  I am 58 and my brother is 60 and she stills refers to us as "the kids."  Wish I were kidding but I'm not.  I think that probably would constitute emotional incest (EI), but maybe you can shed some light on exactly what EI is.  Do you think you ended up developing CPTSD as a result of your M's EI? 

[Kizzie]

I was just flipping through John Bradshaw's book: Healing the Shame that Binds You" (20050 and came across this:

What the shame based mother was unable to find in her own mother she finds in her own children. The child is always at her disposal. A child cannot run away as her own mother did. A child can be used as an echo, is completely centred on her, will never desert her, can be totally controlled, and offers full admiration and absorbed attention..... Now the child is taking care of the parents' needs rather than the parents taking care of the child's need ..... This caretaker role is strangely paradoxical. In an attempt to secure parental love and avoid being abandoned,, the child is in fact, being abandoned (p. 67).

Hard to have a strong sense of self in this kind of family.   

[Finding My Voice]

I was just flipping through John Bradshaw's book: Healing the Shame that Binds You" (20050 and came across this:

What the shame based mother was unable to find in her own mother she finds in her own children. The child is always at her disposal. A child cannot run away as her own mother did. A child can be used as an echo, is completely centred on her, will never desert her, can be totally controlled, and offers full admiration and absorbed attention..... Now the child is taking care of the parents' needs rather than the parents taking care of the child's need ..... This caretaker role is strangely paradoxical. In an attempt to secure parental love and avoid being abandoned,, the child is in fact, being abandoned (p. 67).

Yes, that's pretty much what emotional incest is, as far as I understand it, and that's what happened to me.  I had a mother with BPD (who was herself the daughter of a BPD mother) and she used me to meet her emotional needs.  I listened to her talk about her depression and wishes to die, I had to reassure her that she was a good mother, etc.

Welcome to OOTS Finding My Voice!

Thanks!

Do you think you ended up developing CPTSD as a result of your M's EI?

It was more the overall package of living with a BPD mother, I think -- not being allowed to express thoughts or feelings that contradicted my mother's, isolating myself and silencing myself in order to avoid her rages, the EI and being used by her while my own needs were unmet, criticism that alternated with compliments I couldn't believe, etc.  I was an only child so I was both a GC and SG and got the full force of her maternal attention.

[emotion overload]

This is one of my primary issues today.  I dealt with enmeshment with uBPDm as a child, and still have the problem today.

I really struggle with this now that I am OOTF, because I can't blame the enmeshment on uBPDm anymore.  I have trouble NOT telling her things.  It's why medium chill and boundaries are such a scary idea for me.  Especially now, when I am lonely and don't have a boyfriend, I go to her with most of my problems.  And it embarrasses me to admit this.  I know better.  I know that I am just giving her ammunition and perpetuating an unhealthy relationship.  But it's habit and conditioning, I guess.

I will look into The Emotional Incest Syndrome again.  It's on my amazon wishlist, but I was afraid it was more directed towards mother/son or father/daughter relationships.  I wasn't sure how helpful it would be for mother/daughter.  But Finding My Voice, your recommendation lets me know it should help with me.

[Butterfly]

Goodness my uPD mum brings new meaning to being enmeshed and engulfing beyond relying on me for emotional support. It's like she's not a separate person, she mirrors my likes and dislikes and even steals my health issues as her own. If she does have her own health issue then I must have it too because I'm her daughter so she projects and advises me to see a doctor even though she hasn't for herself. Anything I do she does too and she befriends my friends. It's so suffocating I used to wake in the middle of the night choking and a sleep study showed no physical cause for the phenomenon.

Most recently she stole my near fatal illness for her own to gain sympathy and go around to her friends who in turn came to me during my illness expressing sympathy for my mother that she has this too. There no possible way on earth for her ever to had such a medical emergency as I have had, yet she somehow got others to believe it and feel sorry for her.

I'm not sure I could read about emotional incest without having a major emotional breakdown. Having LC and using MC when I do engage, employing Boundaries when I've had enough, has helped me so much. At least I know I'm separate and function on by own.

ETA - in fact DH was trying to understand how it felt for me and in trying to explain it to him I finally said the only way I can think to say this in a way he could comprehend is to use the word rape. Because despite my 'no' she takes without my permission what belongs to me, what is mine alone, and makes it her own. It was a painful realization for me.

[Badmemories]

 @Emotional overload.

I really struggle with this now that I am OOTF, because I can't blame the enmeshment on uBPDm anymore.  I have trouble NOT telling her things.  It's why medium chill and boundaries are such a scary idea for me.  Especially now, when I am lonely and don't have a boyfriend, I go to her with most of my problems.  And it embarrasses me to admit this.  I know better.  I know that I am just giving her ammunition and perpetuating an unhealthy relationship.  But it's habit and conditioning, I guess.

I really haven't been working on this too much at the time. MY M either is a uMPD person or she has lots of fleas. At this point I mostly get irritated. We went out to Supper the other day and Since I was in range of a wifi I was trying to update my apps. She get a little prissy, because I am not paying attention to her. "I calmly state that when I get finished, I will give you my undivided attention." it will only take a few minutes. She did wait patiently.I did have her on no contact for a while a few years back. She is not on such a high horse now. I also set boundaries. I can actually ask her for advice now. before she'd get mad IF i asked for advice and did not take it. She does call me almost everyday mostly she talks about the news. All of her friends are in nursing homes, or so disabled that She has no one to do things with. In a way I think that I was the Golden Child for many years. She depended on me to be the Mother for her when she worked. Right now she is the least of My problems. As I do need to, I set boundaries. She pretty much accepts them now! Sometimes she tell me when I am very depressed to just get up and do something. She has no understanding of what I go through. I am not sure I can blame her for being abusive. Her parents were very physically abusive. She did not physically punish us very much. Mostly she was emotionally abusive.  I do tell her when I have a different point of view.

She gets mad when I don't answer the phone.... I tell her I am not always at home to answer the phone. If I don't feel like talking to her I don't. One day a while back she actually apologized for chewing me out. I was really surprised.

So, start with the smallest of boundaries. Does she use your chats against you? If so then YOU night want to decide what you will and won't talk about with her. Boundaries are for YOU to protect YOURSELF.. not to control her. how does she act when you state your opinions. does she listen to you at all or is the conversation one sided? Do you have time to do things together? Maybe like me you will have to put your emeshment on the back burner until you get so other support system in place.

[Kizzie]

Maybe like me you will have to put your emeshment on the back burner until you get so other support system in place.

Some good advice from Badmemories Emotional Overload.  Perhaps instead of feeling badly about being enmeshed, try to let it go for now and just focus on doing more for you. You may find the enmeshment starts to take care of yourself. 

I attend a support group (going today as a matter of fact) for people with a mood disorder and it helps.  Is there something like that in your area perhaps?  I love the online forums and all the support and information and encouragement, but it's nice to get an actual hug or smile once in a while.

And do you have any interests that would take you out of the house, that you would enjoy (it can be anything from small to large), and that would help you to focus on you rather than your M? 

My uNPDM who is ground zero for my CPTSD came for a visit in June, not all that long after I went through a really bad stretch and surprise, surprise it actually went quite well. I didn't have a single EF and that's a first in my 58 years.  WE have lots of techniques in palce now for dealing with her, but the main one this time was that my H and I made sure that we always had something in the day that made us happy so if she got on a roll we were not just simmering and sidestepping the PD behav, we had something for ourselves. And it worked! 

So if you want to brainstorm some ideas here I'm sure we can help to get the "It's all about me for a change" juices flowing 

[Finding My Voice]

I really struggle with this now that I am OOTF, because I can't blame the enmeshment on uBPDm anymore.  I have trouble NOT telling her things.  It's why medium chill and boundaries are such a scary idea for me.  Especially now, when I am lonely and don't have a boyfriend, I go to her with most of my problems.  And it embarrasses me to admit this.  I know better.  I know that I am just giving her ammunition and perpetuating an unhealthy relationship.  But it's habit and conditioning, I guess.

I can empathize, I have my own trouble separating emotionally from my mom even though she's not even here anymore.  If she was your only emotional support growing up, as my mom was, it's hard to give that up.

I will look into The Emotional Incest Syndrome again.  It's on my amazon wishlist, but I was afraid it was more directed towards mother/son or father/daughter relationships.  I wasn't sure how helpful it would be for mother/daughter.  But Finding My Voice, your recommendation lets me know it should help with me.

Yes, I was just thinking too that it might address what I think you were talking about elsewhere with rapid up-and-down mood swings -- I think she talks about that as an effect of being a "chosen child" (i.e. the child the parent leans on for support).

[emotion overload]

I read the book, and it was ok.  I am not sure it gave me more info than I already had regarding enmeshment.  I guess this is a topic I've read about and discussed in therapy for years.  A T brought up the term to me about a decade ago. 

The take away from the book is that I need interests and friends.  Yep, I already knew that.  This is very hard for me to do right now, and I have some issues to work thru before I can even attempt that.  I don't leave the house much, I'm isolated, and don't trust people. 

I know that it would be easier to rely on my mom less if I had other support.  I don't know of any support groups.  I live in a poor, rural area.  Actually, my location is part of my reason for being scared to try to make friends.  The majority of people I have met in my area are poor and needy and not afraid to ask for money, rides, etc.  I have had to cut off a few of these sorts of people, and I don't want any more in my life!

[Badmemories]

I have some issues to work Thur before I can even attempt that.  I don't leave the house much, I'm isolated, and don't trust people. 

I know that it would be easier to rely on my mom less if I had other support.  I don't know of any support groups.  I live in a poor, rural area.  Actually, my location is part of my reason for being scared to try to make friends.  The majority of people I have met in my area are poor and needy and not afraid to ask for money, rides, etc.  I have had to cut off a few of these sorts of people, and I don't want any more in my life!

This is MY problem exactly. I own a mobile home court (with uNPDH) All the people there are needy! At first as a part of MY Christianity, I tried to help them ALL.  I tried to make them MY friends. One reason or another I have gone LC with them. I also discovered some of the Women reported back to H about things I was saying.

Reasons why I quit each one.

• I was having one women and her BF clean my house. They were both doing a great job. My house was looking good.. I found that a qt bottle of Mexican Vanilla (hard for me to get I live by the Canadian border!)and all MY perfumes had been drank by BF. I was at GF house one day and found clothing that belonged to MY daughter. I would have been suspect IF I'd have bought them at a regular store and anyone could buy them but I bought them at a thrift store.
• I was regularly giving one friend all kinds of useful things when I worked. When I was locked out of my job due to a labor dispute, She gave me the cold shoulder. I realized I was just a SUPPLY Person for her so I went LC.
• A male in the trailer court I thought was a GOOD friend I caught him looking in my window! I was undressed on my bed.(it was so hot that day ) I actually woke up because I had that feeling "hair raising on my body"
• another Male friend I have given him a few private things I wanted to have if/when I escaped,. When I asked for them back he could not find them. I trusted him and showed him some gems that I had been buying on eBay, they disappeared. I am not sure if either He or uNPDSis toke them. I realized what a MOOCHER HE was.

So I am not sure what to do to make friends in this area. I don't have no problem keeping friends (except uNPDH scares them off on way or another)I was a successful Hairstylist for years, but I don't go to bars, the church I was going to UNPDSis hijacked. Thought about getting to know grand daughters Grandma, but realized she has some sort of PDD also!

I am friendly to everyone, but just don't know how to make dates etc. So I sit here with My OOTF and OOTS forums and research things to help me...

[Finding My Voice]

ETA - in fact DH was trying to understand how it felt for me and in trying to explain it to him I finally said the only way I can think to say this in a way he could comprehend is to use the word rape. Because despite my 'no' she takes without my permission what belongs to me, what is mine alone, and makes it her own. It was a painful realization for me.

I'm so sorry you had such awful experiences, Butterfly.  The N moms who try to upstage their children's problems, s your mother did to you, have stood out to me as being particularly awful.

[Kizzie]

I agree with FindingMyVoice Butterfly, I had many similar things happen with my NPDM, but one in particular stands out because it was so like what you describe.  I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2007 and my M phoned me shortly after we told her to tell me that SHE had been crying all day. I was supposed to comfort her!  I said "Imagine how I feel" hung up and nearly put my fist through the wall.  It was devastating.

FMV, just on a (hopefully) lighter note - my H and I figured out that my NPDM liked to one up me no matter what it is/was so I started telling her I was having to get up earlier and earlier to get work done.  (I teach online and in a time zone that is about 4 hours later than my students.) In the end she was getting up at like 5 AM to get up before me.  We couldn't believe it. She's 85 and has no real reason to get up at any time except when she chooses. Anyway, I took pity on her and started to tell her I was getting up later and later, and eventually she got back to more regular hours, she even slept in a few days so it all balanced.

I know, I know - childish but hey we had a good chuckle, a very nice change.

[schrödinger's cat]

I hardly know what to say... Your stories sound harrowing, and I'm hoping things will get better as soon as possible.

Does someone have a good definition of Enmeshment? It's to do with unclear or wonky boundaries, right? If it is, I might have experienced it with my mother. I think she's come to project onto me all the worry and concern that she doesn't let herself feel for herself. We've had entire phone conversations that consisted of her worrying about my own, personal concerns. She worries, I reassure her, she doubts, I explain, she has strong reservations, i get defensive, she gravely tells me that one must not underestimate the danger, I start arguing, she recommends that I learn to take things easy.

...It almost sounds funny if I write it down like that. It isn't funny while it's happening. I feel as if I'm suffocating under some huge duvet and someone keeps pushing it at me so I can't even move.

I still feel silly for posting this. It's not in the same league as parentalization. But it undermined my trust in myself completely. I've learned to never admit to a single problem that I haven't yet fixed. I never let myself show anyone even a moment's uncertainty or vulnerability. Which is a great thing to do if one is suffering from PTSD or CPTSD, yes? It's like being ill with the flu and then having to tapdance and beam at the camera. ... The fact that I kept finding social interactions tiring makes more and more sense.

[Butterfly]

Deepest thanks for commenting on my feelings. I'm at the same time comforted to not be alone and sad for everyone else at the same time. Kizzie I hope the cancer is in full remission.

schroedingerskatze, Please (and I know this is wrong to probably word it this way) but don't ever feel silly for posting. All of us are damaged in some way and there is no degree of damage it is simply damage.

To me the easiest way to describe enmeshment is all up in each other's business but it's a step further. Projection and mirroring are part of it too. See link below for detailed official definition.
http://www.outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/Engulfment.html

I think of the term Engulfing from the other persons point of view the term Enmeshment to describe the relationship. Essentially they're the same meaning.

If you're familiar with Star Trek the concept of the Borg really defines the enmeshment and that's how I feel. If you're unfamiliar with the Borg theme google it. Here's a post from OOTF.
http://outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=32126.msg300614#msg300614

Now thanks to MC she knows hardly anything. Not even what I'm making for dinner because any tiny detail of my life was used to enmesh, share, tell others and show how close we are. She over shared every detail about me but would bite my head off if I said a word about her at all in front of anyone.

It's sad for me not having a mum to be close to and its sad for her not having the daughter she wants. The whole thing fills me with sadness.