Protecting myself

[DecimalRocket]

Hey, blue, not really in the best place now to give a lengthy comment. So here are some hugs.

[Blueberry]

Thank you DR 

[Blueberry]

On Christmas Eve, I made the decision not to sit next to this acquaintance. She got up to greet me when I went into the room, and I said I wanted to look around a bit and feel where I wanted to sit. Really, feel. A few years ago I would've probably made the same choice as her: last table in the corner. But not anymore. I'd rather be a bit more 'central' and can manage fine having a table behind me and people either side etc. Then a long-term friend came through the door! I didn't even know she'd signed up for that celebration. We sat together. It was good. 

The acquaintance left an hour before the end too, I'd forgotten about that. She can't hack being with people for longer than 2-3 hours. So if I'd been sitting next to her, I'd have been left without one of my neighbours part way through the celebration. I decided what was good for me . I can have compassion about somebody not being able to handle being in the company of others she doesn't know or in a room where there is a certain amount of noise, or just having a low level of exhaustion tolerance, but it doesn't mean I have to plan around this person! She's not a SO or a child or anybody really close like that.

[DecimalRocket]

That's great progress in self care. You deserve some time with your friend. 

I can relate to being rather sensitive with the company of people — I'd probably only last an hour in there. But I usually make it my responsibility to have my needs met here. And it's her own responsibility with her too.

[Blueberry]

Had another breakthrough with another friend tonight. We often phone each other and support each other, so it's a different situation from the one acquaintance who wanted me to sit next to her. Still with the friend I phone, B., it's sometimes a little difficult. But mostly we can talk about that.

Maybe a few months ago we were talking and she mentioned that the previous phone call had thrown her for a loop afterwards and I mentioned something that I'd done during that call and asked if that had been the problem. It had been, although a) it wasn't anything bad and b) certainly wasn't intentional, but the way I asked if it had been me, I ended up on her side of the road so to speak and abandoned my ICs. I felt responsibility that certainly wasn't 100% mine, and I felt bad or my ICs did.

Today I phoned B. to say I hadn't gone on holiday after all due to exhaustion. She mentioned her degree of exhaustion, which sounded even worse. Then she went on to tell me the effects of our last conversation on her (not good at the end) and then what happened afterward, ie. one of her FOO members called her. I interrupted her to remind her that I'm really exhausted today too and I don't have the strength to hear what her FOO did and although I can understand that what I said at the end of the last phone call might have seemed difficult, what her FOO went on to do has nothing to do with me!!  Me setting boundaries again  .

What I had said at the end of the phone call was that I wouldn't have time to meet up with her on a particular day in 10 days after all, though I'd never promised I would, it was just mentioned as a possible date, subject to possible change of plans in her case or mine. Actually I'm working on that day because that's when a student can come. It's my decision to earn some more money that day and to teach this student who kept getting sick in the summer and fall, but really needs help.

Even towards B., it's difficult for me to stay on my own side of the road and not make compromises that are 70% for her, 30% for me. e.g. we often meet in between our towns but closer to hers, so it's more expensive and more time-consuming for me to get there and home again. Or what struck me tonight, she's better in contact with her pain and sadness than I am, so she can say that she's sad about something and start crying. That's very difficult for me; when I start crying I'm absolutely distraught. So she's more likely to cry on the phone than I am, at which point I jump to attention, put my own feelings away and am there for her. I don't think she's doing it on purpose or to be manipulative. We've known each other for a long time and have helped each other through some terrible times. Both times where I had a real crisis at FOO's place, B.'s phone help was immeasurable in its helpfulness. I was also distraught enough to cry uncontrollably both times.

Anyway it's real progress for me to stand up for myself in this way and say: a) Stop!   b) this is how what you're saying is affecting me now   c) calmly discuss     and   d) remain in contact

Because in FOO remaining in contact emotionally was impossible when I was growing up, for reasons I can't write atm (but have been aware of them cuz discussed in T).

[Libby12]

Hi Blueberry.

I just wanted to say well done on your progress in protecting yourself whilst dealing with your friends. Navigating these friendships sounds especially challenging as the friends you talk about have their own issues, which you understand so well, that it would be so easy to put aside your own need for protection.

Also,  this thread has helped me so much.

Since starting to get to grips with cptsd,  I have realised just how badly I am triggered by my in-laws. They are not nearly as damaging as my foo were,  but their lack of caring and concern and invalidation. has always been very triggering.  For years, I knew this, but pushed it aside.  Recently,  this invalidation plunged me into an awful EF,  after which, I decided it was time for some self protection.   Your post has really helped validate this decision,  and has helped me deal with the shame and guilt.  I suspect that people in general would think it wrong for me to avoid my very elderly in-laws, and extended family.  I am sure they would think it must be all my fault as I have already lost my foo to NC.  This is where talking and reading here is so valuable.  No one else would understand.

Having said that,  my in-laws phoned whilst dh was eating so I said I would speak to them.   Dh reminded me that Pete Walker said avoid triggers ( he has been reading his book)  and relieved me of the obligation. 

So thank you Blueberry and everyone else here.  Your discussion around self-protection has helped me enormously.

Finally,  Blueberry,  I would be very interested to hear more about your last comment regarding your foo and emotions,  if and when you feel able. I think our foo's have definite similarities.

Thank you again and let's all stand strong in protecting ourselves and each other!!

Libby

[Blueberry]

I just wanted to say well done on your progress in protecting yourself whilst dealing with your friends.

Thank you! 

Navigating these friendships sounds especially challenging as the friends you talk about have their own issues, which you understand so well, that it would be so easy to put aside your own need for protection.

You're right, it is challenging, but OTOH sometimes these friendships are easier too because these friends do realise that I also have my issues. It can be a lot easier to talk to them than to friends without issues, or for whom 'issues' might mean a spot of depression 10 years ago that they got over. That's just not in the same league as dealng with CPTSD.

The overall challenge is to recognise that there is enough give and take and so remain in friendship and keep working on setting limits and caring for myself within the friendship, and when there isn't enough give and take, to let go.

Friends don't have to be friends for ever. You can share part of the road together, but branch off again, go different routes, even choose different routes when you recognise that you're not doing each other any good any more. Or the other person isn't doing me much good.

These are all new developments for me.

Libby, "Because in FOO remaining in contact emotionally was impossible when I was growing up, for reasons I can't write atm" -  this is a topic where for the moment I'm still saying: let sleeping dogs lie. (Self-protection.)
At some point, I'll take it up again though. 

[Andyman73]

I don't know much about friends, my best ones were online only.  My last friend IRL died over 14 years ago.  But if you have to work at it, not such a good friend. And the harder you work at, the less of a friend they really are.  Good friends should be easy to keep.

[Blueberry]

I'm not sure about that Andy. I work at myself every day. So does the friend I mention immediately above. Makes sense to me that we have to use a bit of give and take with each other and that that involves work.

[Andyman73]

I'm not sure about that Andy. I work at myself every day. So does the friend I mention immediately above. Makes sense to me that we have to use a bit of give and take with each other and that that involves work.

Hey, I just realized that my only relationship beyond my brothers, that would be closest to a friend is with future abusive ex  wife. So I don't actually know what I'm talking about, in regards to friendships. So....I offer my humblest apologies for talking about something which I honestly know nothing about. 

[Blueberry]

Andy, I hope during your healing progress that you start to come across people IRL who fit the definition of friend better than future abusive ex wife. HOnest, there are people out there who will treat you better. 

[Andyman73]

Andy, I hope during your healing progress that you start to come across people IRL who fit the definition of friend better than future abusive ex wife. HOnest, there are people out there who will treat you better. 

I sure hope so. 

[Blueberry]

Even towards B., it's difficult for me to stay on my own side of the road and not make compromises that are 70% for her, 30% for me. e.g. we often meet in between our towns but closer to hers, so it's more expensive and more time-consuming for me to get there and home again. 

Been working on this topic today with B. Originally we planned to meet on Sunday, and because she's going through a pretty rough spell (non-abusive mother dying) in my mind I had been willing to give 70% again and meet her in the town we usually do. Even though I had previously been planning to start putting an end to that. But now she wants to meet on Saturday instead where I don't have so much time for travelling. I went right ahead and suggested we meet in a different town a lot closer to my place. In fact it is right in the middle between our two towns! When I've broached this topic before, it's always been a town a bit further away for me and closer to her, and even then she hasn't been willing. Only now do I discover town L. really is the half-way point!

I spoke on her voicemail so don't know how she will react. It was a bit hard for me but I did it.  Old memories coming up: my suggestions for what to do where, even things like what to paint and where to put it on huge class painting in elementary school are coming up. I was bullied back then and felt 'pushed around'. I wasn't one of the leaders and was told my ideas were stupid. I couldn't assert myself, which is no surprise since I wasn't allowed to at home. Never got any practice.

[Blueberry]

My impression today is: this is difficult! I got a message from B. yesterday but I didn't hear till this morning that she wants to discuss rather than email and voicemail about it. I can understand that. But also realise it's easier for me to discuss some by email because then it's easier for me to stand my ground and not be swayed into going with another person's plans which may be pretty disadvantageous to me, i.e. meeting up in the town closest to her.

But anyway I gave a client of mine a Saturday appointment. My friend may not be happy, but I couldn't be sure she'd agree to Saturday the way I'd proposed anyway. I feel myself tying myself up in knots justifying this decision. I realise I've been justifying and explaining most of my life, instead of just saying "No!". Why doesn't "No" work? Probabyl goes back to those backyard swimming pool walls again. They've been crashed into so many times that people automatically notice they can wander in over them and fix them to be the way that suits them.

My T has been intimating this for a while.

I don't think this friend is bad or a bad friend. She's merely thinking of herself the way I should be thinking more of myself than I generally do. She's better at staying on her side of the road. She's not used to me staying on my side of the road, but she'll get used to it in time! I use "should" here and I'm OK with that. "intend to" and "want to" would be better but I'm not that far along. That'll come though. 

[Blueberry]

She wasn't happy. In fact she said she was annoyed. Fortunately she's able to hear a different view point from her own. So it's OK. She said she's not annoyed any more, now that I've explained my side of things. It turned out that my intuition was correct though. She wouldn't have been willing to meet in the town of L. on Saturday anyway, it would've had to have been the town much nearer her place, which doesn't work for me this Saturday. So I'm glad I have my client the appointment on Saturday.

Really I should be able to say "Sorry that's not going to work for me. How about...?" But I guess people are used to me backing down and making compromises for their plans, so kind of argue their own side a bit much. They had better get used to a more assertive Blueberry.