Love Map / Sexuality issues TW - Sexual abuse

[sinthia820]

I wanna know if I am alone with this or if others have scewed love maps or interests due to the trauma they experienced? I understand that for some sex or intimacy is a trigger but I'm curious if anyone has different than normal response to the trauma, like development of a fetish or something. 

I have CPTSD recent self diagnosis. I had extensive childhood trauma with significant sexual trauma.

My whole family (and it was a large one 10 aunts and uncles and over 30 cousins) were either predator or pray (I guess there were the very few who were just enablers) my sexual trauma started at age 5 (that I know of) and continued with family related trauma until I was 16.

I never learned what relationships were supposed to be like. There were never any significant examples. Like most here I thought it was all normal. When I passed puberty and was removed from that life I had no clue what was normal. I struggled the first 10ish years after that trying to figure it out.

I was triggered often, laid down and excepted my fate when I found myself in certain situations. My only examples of what to expect was what I had experienced and observed as a child and what I could glean from movies and tv shows. I get mad thinking of all the times I was assaulted where I never knew I could have just walked away. (There were a lot of them, very nice considerate guys and friends who were right there had I just said hey can we go home? But that's another story for another time)

As time went on and experiences happened I began to learn how to avoid situations I wasnt interested in. I also found what it was that I was interested in.

This is where things get weird if sexual depravity might offend you I'd suggest not reading any further.

I can't imagine that a guy wants to have sex for any other purpose except for physical gratification. I believe that mens sexual gratification is so important that they compromise on their beliefs and morality in order to experience it.

There are exceptions but I believe that the drive for sexual gratification is so much a part of male genetics that except for the rare circumstance men will chose sexual gratification over none.

Tell a man he has to cut off an arm or leg.... or his penis and I don't believe any man would chose to cut off his penis (I know logically that there has to be exceptions but emotionally I don't believe it)

And yes I know this belief is due to my trauma and it is not fact. But I can't help what I believe.

With that in mind I have never felt emotionally connected in anyway while having an intimate relationship, I'm sure my ideas about men aren't the only reason for that but it is what it is.

However since I've come into my sexual own I've realized that I am mostly responsive to pain and physical assault type behavior. That I get the most satisfaction both physically and emotionally from this type of sexual act. The idea of being forced and kept long term, kidnapped or the like is the only scenario where I can imagine that I would ever truly feel wanted.

I have rape fantasies, how seriously screwed up is that? Has anyone else developed an unhealthy or seriously screwed relationship with sex? Does anyone know why or how this is? Is there a way around or through this? Has anyone changed their sexual preferences?

The idea that gay is a choice comes to mind. I feel that this is permanent that I'll always feel this way. I can't change my preferences any more than someone who is gay can. Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated it was a hard decision to write about sex for obvious reasons, I hope there are others who could benefit from this type of discussion.

If this was over stepping I'm sorry. Not my intention, it is really something that I could never talk to anyone about but still needed to.

[sanmagic7]

sinthia, i think it's pretty common to have sexual issues due to trauma.  while i didn't have sexual abuse/rape as a child, as a therapist i've run into it thru clients.

from the way i perceive our evolution as human beings, we got thru many phases of sexuality, beginning when we're babies.  at that time, our bodies are ourselves, and we have no shame.  as we grow, we usually develop a sense of innate modesty around the ages of 8 or 9, somewhere around there (now, there might be more recent research regarding this, but this was what i'd learned a long time ago).

going into adolescence, hormones start running rampant and kids start becoming interested in sex.  there is usually, which i think is healthy, a kind of dance - first kiss, awkwardness, and often the boy's testosterone is pushing them to want more.  they've already experienced ejaculation, if only in their sleep, but erections give them pleasurable feelings.

girls go thru a different process, that of having their period, which is not as pleasant, even tho it's the gateway to adulthood for them.  they, too, become interested in sex, but the dynamic is different.  they want some sexual experience, but often not at the same rate as boys.

eventually, they all become of an age where they experiment, perhaps begin having sex.  but, along the way it's a process of learning what feels good, boundaries, when you're emotionally ready, all that stuff.  lots of different messages about it. but the healthiest ones are to be true to you, go with your gut, and respect yourself.  everything will probably work out in the end.

however, when someone has this dance denied them thru sa/rape, especially at an early age, the entire process is interrupted in terrible ways.  the understanding and maturity is missing, there is an imbalance of power so no equality is felt, and the child becomes lost as to any reference of right or wrong, good or bad, self-esteem, self-respect, and their natural progression thru innocence to experimentation to agreement.

beliefs about sex get distorted, childhood is lost, and personal power is wiped out.  we become comfortable with what we've become accustomed to, no matter what the trauma is.  often we've been told that we are loved, but learn that love hurts.  therefore, with enough of such experiences, we accept that the only way to feel good is to feel pain.

i wouldn't doubt that you may have had some pretty abusive sexual experiences as a child, and some may have been coupled with the word 'love'.  it this happens often enough, what else would a child think?  love and rough sex go hand in hand.  any other type of sex doesn't feel right or good or a turn-on.

i don't think you're weird or freaky or anything like that, sinthia.  i think your sexual preferences are a direct result of the sexual abuse you endured as a child.  you may believe they are your only option now, but like any other harmful habits we've developed along the way of surviving this beast of c-ptsd, it's possibly a coping mechanism.  those can be changed when we're ready to do so.

if this is bothersome for you, i hope you are able to get the help needed to resolve it.  sending you a gentle hug full of respect, compassion, and love.

[sinthia820]

You had me up until the abusive part. None of it was ever abusive (I think violent is the better word), non of it was related to love or positive feelings. There was never a desire to comply so I wouldn't be punished or for approval. There wasn't a reward punishment system. I was simply a tool, I wasn't even forced to participate. I was just expected to except it quietly.

I kind of went off explaining and clarifying (discussing what happened and getting it out there sure is cathartic) what I meant to say is thank you that makes perfect sense, if you know of any material I would love to read it, or even maybe a reference point for research. Googling screwed up sexual preferences doesn't produce a good result. I don't know about it being a coping mechanism. I really think that somewhere along the way with the neglect and reactive attachement stuff that after all was said and done my ideas about desire and commitment got weird.

Thank you so much for your reply I'm not ready to break out all the deep stuff with my therapist yet. It's hard to tell em all the dirty details. We are working on me building friendships because I don't feel as if I can get past surface relationships because I don't have the capacity for emotions or feelings. She's still naive and thinks that I'm just guarded. I haven't told her that I am sure I have CPTSD or that I think I have reactive attachement disorder or that my ACES score is 7. I'm trying to see if she picks up on any of that on her own.

Again thank you so much for the reply. The only way to figure this out is to understand it better. Thanks again your insight was much appreciated.

[Dee]

I didn't read all of the replies, so sorry if I repeat.  It is a triggering subject.  However; I get it, more than I want.

I tend to think that men, deep down, only care about one thing.  No matter how they come across, they are thinking about sex.  I also forget men have feelings.  I try to remind myself that there are more to them, but I struggle.

[woodsgnome]

***TRIGGERS ahead***

I know I can't venture too far here. I fear rejection, disbelief, and really I don't know what else. The only way to say anything coherent is to try; it's all I can do. Other than with my current T, I've never tried, but feel safe enough here to risk sharing a bit of my experience; it might even be, as sinthia820 notes, somewhat cathartic, if not extremely emotional for me.

I'm a guy who must be one of those 'others'. I've kind of had sexual experiences; but I say kinda 'cause they involved emotional intimacy first and foremost rather than an emphasis on purely sexual relations, if that makes any sense. So I guess I fall into the 'other' category, counter to the assumption that all men are either predatory or out for self-satisfaction only.

All I know is I've never fit that description, and have resisted the notion that being brutish and violent defines masculinity. In my case, I'm probably more akin to being what's called asexual when it comes to what most people define as sexual orientation. It's more emotional than what gets depicted in the media as being 'normal'.

Let me try diving into some dangerous ultra-personal feelings, though; when it comes to what's usually defined as the sex act, I get close and want to be there for my partner as a mutual expression of the emotional ties we've established, but something happens that I can't describe adequately. Suffice to say that I can't reach the final stage, as I freak out at that point. I'm already on a ledge with matters I've never been able to discuss, so bear with me.

Why am I such a catastrophe concerning 'normal' sexual matters? I sense it's got everything to do with being molested by the m (my first life memory involves that and continued for 9 years) and several female teachers (K, 3rd & 4th grade); the older sister is somewhere in there, too. The teachers were in a religious setting, and back before there were many if any sanctions of any kind in that regard; as long as the facade could be maintained and manipulated, they had free range. In effect these emotional emasculations appear to have severely affected that part of my sexual makeup, but it's almost impossible to discuss without going into complete and awkward freeze/ dissociation.

Asexuality isn't always due to the sort of molestations I experienced; but this isn't the time or place for an in-depth summary of what being asexual entails. Asexuality itself may not in fact be that unique, according to lots of research about it. As a personal aside, when I get to sexual depictions in novels or other media, I can't go there, just read around it, as I can't relate. Romance, yes; sex--get me outta here.

In person, I can't stand sexual innuendo, and remove myself if it breaks out or just revert to a dissociative state. When it comes to which gender goes heavy on that sort of talk, I've experienced about equal amounts from both. A lot of it seems media driven, as sadly that's where many people are 'educated' about relationships and what's acceptable or not.

But I have to stop. I just hope someone somehow understands where I'm coming from. All I know is when it comes to skewed love maps, well... I feel very embarrassed with this, but also felt compelled to say something as it's had a huge impact on my relationships, to say the least.

Considering, though, I'm thinking I'm an okay person despite it. So I'm not 'normal'? To have lived this far into the game I think took a lot; hard as it is to explain, I have to live with myself, whether I fit into a 'normal' stereotype or not.

[Hope66]

Woodsgnome - I just wanted to say that I relate to things you've said here - and I think you've done so well to talk about it -  to you (if it helps).
Hope 

[sanmagic7]

sinthia, abuse isn't always about violence.  the idea that you had expectations laid on you to 'go along with' and accept what was happening is abuse.  that you were seen and used as a 'tool' is abuse.  that there was no care or concern for your feelings was abuse.  some of the more abusive actions are non-actions, such as expectations.  i know all about those, and they've been some of the toughest to be rid of.

i mentioned love because a lot of kids are sexually abused under the guise of 'i love you so much, i just want to be close to you' or some such nonsense.  but, no, not always.  it that's not how it was for you, then it just doesn't apply.  it's different for everyone.

i wish i could give you specific reading material, but i learned this stuff along the way mainly from workshops or clients.   there may be information online about the effects of sexual abuse on children.  i think that's where i'd start.  there are probably books on the subject as well, but i can't tell you any specifically.  (ok, i just googled 'effects of childhood sexual abuse' and a whole bunch of articles and other info came up.  you'll be able to pick and choose.  sexual problems in adulthood was mentioned.)

i think you've survived some horrors, and all credit to you for speaking your truth.  you didn't deserve any of it, and you're still paying the price.  i do hope you'll eventually allow your t to help you with some of this - when you're ready, of course.  i think it might be difficult to guess at something like this, tho, as a therapist.  sometimes we need a hint or two - it's not always easy to know in which direction we need to search.

always remember, tho, that it's your recovery, your pace, and your decisions to make about how fast you want to go or what you want to uncover.  i totally support and respect your decisions with this.  big hug to you filled with care and compassion.

wg, thank you for your courage.  you are a brave man and an inspiration.  i think, with all the abuse from females you've had in your life it would be pretty common to react as you have with women.  there are probably some very deep feelings and realizations that could be topics for therapy.  if you feel like digging. 

i once knew a man who was, for all intents and purposes, emotionally castrated.  he, too, could get only so far and no farther.  one thing that helped him to know was that sex does not a man make.  he'd put so much pressure on himself to 'follow thru' with the act, that all his insecurities and past experiences got in the way. 

these females in your past took a piece of you every time, and how does a boy grow to manhood intact when that happens?   the idea that you enjoy the emotional intimacy is a great gift for you to both have and give.   it's also a miracle that you retain it, to my mind.

big hug to you, wg, filled with love and acceptance.

[sinthia820]

I don't know how to do the quote thing but woodsgnome when you say you fear rejection and disbelief and that you were embarrassed.

I wish there was something I could say so that wasn't a fear for you. I personally don't care what is believed and I'm so used to being rejected because of what happened that it doesn't matter to me when it happens. If anything it's a reflection on the kind of person they are.

Maybe just focus on what you said at the end, that all things considered you are a pretty okay person. And so what if you are not normal. Really no ones normal.

I also think that I might be over stepping here (so not a therapist) but if an action causes you anxiety or causes you to trigger or disassociate why even put yourself in that situation? I understand seeking emotional attachment as that's something that you want but going further because it's 'normal' or because it's expected. I couldn't do it, it would feel like I was assaulting myself. I do everything I can to avoid my 'triggers' it took a while for me to realize that my happiness and comfort and security is more important then fitting in and doing the 'norm'. It makes life a little lonely but at least I'm not in pain.

I hope that you find a way to except you for you. And know there is nothing wrong with you. You are more than a sum of your parts! When I start to get hard on myself about those parts of myself I try and remember regardless of the reason nature or nurture I am who I am and that's all that I am. I'm not saying lower your expectations for yourself but maybe remember that your expectations should be based on what you want, on what makes you happy or safe.

Sanmagic, thanks again for your help and support, I've read a bit about sexual disfunction after child abuse but haven't really found what I'm looking for. My attention span hinders my progress. I want to understand the science behind it. Like how childhood trauma actually changes the brains development and ultimately all things through that. Sort of how reactive attachment disorder develops. How in infancy the need for nurture is so tantamount to a child's development that with out it, or under the wrong circumstances a child might never develop the ability to have emotional attachments.

I like understanding the science behind it. Thanks again for everyone! And again Woodsgnome i hope this reminds you that you are not alone, I know it helps me except myself easier knowing that there are others who are also affected and changed on a visceral level, because you are right someone who hasn't experienced something similar doesn't understand and often doesn't believe, because to them things like love and romance and sex are all just natural. It's not on the same level exactly but no one believes me when I tell them I've never loved and don't have the capacity to do so... their response is you just haven't met the right guy, I then have to decide if I'm going to try and explain that I wasn't referring to guys, that I've never loved at all, not parents or siblings or a best friend. Usually I just give up and let them believe what they want. I know the truth, and have found a few who understand. Good luck in all that is life.

[sanmagic7]

have you read 'the body keeps the score' by bessel van der kolk?  he goes into a lot of detail about how the brain is changed by trauma and abuse.  being a doc and psychiatrist, he's studied trauma victims for over 40 yrs., had been to all kinds of workshops and seminars seeking out other professionals who have dared to look at trauma differently than what the going trend was at the time.

he shows imaging of 'normal' and traumatized brains so you can actually see the difference.  i respect his work, thoughts, and opinions immensely. 

my other thought, if you have access to a university library, is to do some research among psychology papers and articles.  you might find what you're looking for there.

from what i saw on the internet, there's not a lot of info of the kind it seems you're looking for.  however, one thing that was pointed out several times was that a nurturing environment, along with trauma therapy (especially with a therapist who is well versed in RAD can be extremely helpful. 

while you might have to look for the latter on your own, this forum can provide a very nurturing, supportive resource for you.  best to you with this.  it sounds like a toughie, but i believe it's do-able.  big hug, sinthia, filled with understanding and relief.

[woodsgnome]

Thanks, Sinthia820, Hope66, and Sanmagic7--your compassion and insight is what makes this forum so vital on this bumpy road called recovery (even if there's nothing to recover to).

I was a little concerned I was jumping into sinthia820's thread but the words just tumbled. I've never quite spelled it out that precisely, but it felt alright especially as I recognized how your confusion and feelings seemed so familiar, despite the different circumstances that contributed to our painful experiences.

You're spot-on, sinthia820, in pointing out that I have to know my boundaries better. It's just been tough knowing that the depths of emotion I've shared with someone can't go the full mile, as it were; all because of senseless actions that weren't my fault. But I know that now, and it sits in my grief bucket, with what I call my 'leftovers'; then it's how to live with what I do have, which is still pretty okay in spite of the painful residue and mind-rattling numbness of this injured psyche/soul.

I like the title on this thread referring to the 'love map'; love is a universal presence, and there's many roads through the territory. Some lead to what I'll call the sexual wilderness, but we lose sight of all the roads--sexually expressed or not--that involve love in all its aspects (the sexual is actually the rarity; whereas there's loads of everyday examples of love it doesn't include). Many only look easier; still we each have our own route, and need to honour it.

Did I just say something about universal love? Hmm...love was actually a trigger word for years, because all I knew of the word's use came from some pretty bad human models. If regarding that simple word in a different light indicates a step to recovery and/or wholeness, I'll take it and go from there. And know that I'm alright...always was. 

[sanmagic7]

big hug, filled with universal love.  i hope that's ok.

[Blueberry]

*** TW throughout ***
sinthia,
in this thread http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=6089.0 in my posts from May 25th and especially June 3rd I've written about my reactions to CSA, i.e. the sexualised mechanisms I developed as a child, pre-teen!, to deal with it all. I can't remember if I wrote in these posts or not, but images of my own abuse ran in my head while I was doing these things to myself. Still do if I slip up and do it again.

Other than this mechanism, I don't partake in sexuality of any sort and I'm approaching 50. I'm not actually asexual, nor am I lesbian although some Ts have suggested that might be the case. It's not. But the CSA, while being more covert than what other people suffered, started at a very young age, probably infancy, and has messed me up a lot.

The other really warped reaction is: well, I was abused by my mother and so were my brothers. They have no memory of this but I witnessed it on numerous occasions. So the other warped reaction is that in my mind, even if I'm attracted to a man - which has sometimes happened - he's his mother's property, not mine. Don't misunderstand me please! If I had a son, I wouldn't do it to him. I don't actually think that mothers should be abusing their sons at all, but it's like I wouldn't be allowed any sexual relationship with a man because his mother comes first, as mine did. I'll just say for myself and any others of you on here who feel triggered: the warped person was my mother and other abusers. I'm not actually warped by nature. It's important for me to remind myself of that so as not to take on the abuser guilt.

Now to stand up again and dance around the room to re-ground.

[BlancaLap]

I believe that your sexual preferences or "fetishes" (I think the whole rape thing is a fetish) aren't like being gay: they can change, but they change when you get at some point in your recovery journey.

[aliasgrace]

Hi Sinthia,

Thank you for your courage to share your thoughts and feelings, deep and sacred. I am also a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. It is my first memory with a much older neighborhood boy. I am lucky that we moved so I don't believe it went on for too long. I do lack the capacity to fathom the duration of your abuse or the fact that it was with family. Everything you describe seems like entirely natural responses to that situation and I have profound empathy.

I was age 3-4 when it happened, and I spent the next 20ish years absolutely terrified of men and becoming astute at avoiding compromising situations. If I wasn't able to get out of them, I would disassociate. At 19, I had a therapist who had me visualize being in a compromising situation, not disassociating, and establishing my boundaries. We did some role playing, and it was extremely helpful. I don't think you need to divulge all the "dirty" details; your therapist needs only to know that childhood sexual abuse happened and what your emotional experiences are today to work on some techniques. Not sure of the details of your relationships with men, but if you're not connecting emotionally, you might still be disassociating. It took me a long time to get past that emotional protectiveness response. FYI, I am not a therapist, just someone who's been in a lot of therapy.

So this is the part where I am a bit too forward sexually, so I am not sure I'd consider the need for a trigger warning but maybe a different type of warning. 

**TW - reactive behavior**

There are a lot of responses to childhood sexual abuse. Some embrace promiscuity while others close in. While I would be the latter, 6 years of age is quite early to start masturbating and discover orgasm. All of my fantasies are derived through someone else's pleasure, with me being the one objectified. Even though I've primarily had healthy long-term sexual relationships, these fantasies have stayed with me. I no longer disassociate but am not sure this will ever go away.

And you're right, male libido is quite a force. There was a NYT article on it just this week, given our current consciousness-raising about male privilege, power, and sexual abuse. I believe in Evolution, and the first tenet of evolution is survival of the species, ie, Reproduction. Without reproduction, a species will die off so there are crazy mechanisms in place. Did you know that male dolphins gang rape? Male elephants are pretty aggressive as well. The animal kingdom is rife; female preying mantises eat their male sexual partners after consummation.  But it's a spectrum. Any guy who I was in a relationship with, I made sure to tell about my past before we had sex. They all showed sensitivity and made sure my needs were met before theirs. With additional healing and the right male, you can have something that feels safe and meets your needs. Not to be too presumptuous but it sounds like you still have them, and you deserve to have them. If given the choice to cut off my arm or clitoris, I think I'd also choose my arm.  I can get a prosthetic arm but can't regrow 8,000 nerve endings that have the capacity to deliver pleasure and release.

This is only my 2nd post so I hope that wasn't too forward. I have worked hard to discard the shame of all those details and presume that's one of the main points of this community.

[Three Roses]

*STRONG TW sexual content*

I think one of the hardest things to go thru with my abusive childhood is not being able to talk about it. I cherish this forum for that reason - within certain parameters, we can discuss how we were/are affected.

In my younger days I was promiscuous, embracing my sexuality. Or so I told myself. There was usually the deep shame when I woke the next morning, sober and regretful. But it was the way I was socialized by my FOO, the one thing I was ever praised or valued for - my body and the ways I could gratify another. It was the way I fit in, the currency I used to gain admittance.

Of course now I see it all completely differently. I'm working on the shame and having this place to let my innermost thoughts see the light of day is an incredible gift.

**edited to add - check out our Guidelines here: http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=1616.0