The answer was always no

[Phoebes]

Did anyone else give up on asking things at an early age because you knew the answer would be no? And know only that you will receive harsh punishment or verbal berating for even asking?

I'm trying to relate why I still feel like such an imposter in some areas of my life. Relationships with friends basically, unable to attract the kind of mate I'd like.

This same feeling is what I feel like having been kept from being able to do normal kid things, pursue my interests, or even express a liking. I remember at some point realizing not everyone gets this treatment. Just me (that I could tell). Realizing other kids get to have a choice and do things they enjoy without harsh criticism. Other kids get to make "mistakes" and voice feelings without getting harsh punishment, particularly physical.

And now, I feel like other adults don't have this constant anxiety and shame, because of the constant feeling of I should be past this by now. I shouldn't have to be sorting all of this out. Other adults can attract a nice mate, have a family, function at a job, are too productive and engaged in relationships for all of this stress. I still feel the same isolation. Like something is wrong with me. (even though intellectually I've worked past all of this, the feeling and well, REALITY, is still there. I am alone and not done anything with my life I thought I would.)

And then, the "religious" messages and platitudes constantly being thrown out there by people without covert gaslighting from their so-called loved ones..messages that say you create your own reality, let the past go, a mother's love, forgiveness is the answer, etc.. Well, I DO agree and believe these messages when I see and hear them in general, but for ME, they are confusing, and often backwards, and create frustration and anxiety- at the very least something to have to sort through. But I think I'm digressing...

[M.R.]

I'm sorry you feel this way Phoebes. A couple years ago I was the person you described. The one with a family, job etc. In the 2 years since that time I've regressed back to feeling how I felt at 12 or younger when I was still in my situation. And, I sincerely hope that if you feel that you are regressing that there is someone to help you so that you just have a minor set back and don't end up like me. :/

Melodie

[Phoebes]

Melodie-it sounds like you're going through a rough patch too. Even in your relationship, did you feel like the past was behind you, or did it effect the way you felt about yourself in it? I feel like I must exude that I don't think I'm worthy. Whether it be a career/activity choice or relationship. I have had my chances, and I've blown it (so far). I know it's not too late to start, but then I don't seem to start. I have had talents and opportunities to make it happen. I feel frozen. I come across young people living "my" dream and feel so upset with myself for being so stuck my whole life. I felt like I belonged with a nice person, but always chose they people who didn't see me and had no problem discarding me(now I understand why, but it took so long). I've felt so guilty and awful for not being able to create the life I wanted. All of my own bad choices. But being berated instead of encouraged, kept from practice and the supplies, kept from doing what I wanted to pursue. I feel like this plays a role. I know I'm an adult and it's all my choice now, so I feel awful and stuck and paralyzed and guilty.

[Phoebes]

The other truly dysfunctional aspect of this that makes me want to hurl now is all this time when I would make art, I would give the best to my uNm. I wasn't consciously seeking her approval, but I do this subconsciously I was hoping she would "see" me and approve and LOVE me. I enjoyed making gifts and made them for others too, but I consciously made things just for her, or gave her my favorite. How sick is that?

[M.R.]

Phoebes,

I still had my problems. I still had anxiety, panic attacks and (C)PTSD but they were barely there and they didn't really affect me. I was happy and moving on with my life. I was going to a community college full-time and I had two work study jobs plus helping my grandparents on the weekend. I would come home and cook for my father and I and clean after being at college for 12 hours or so. (My "family" back then was literally my blood family. I was in a state of mind that I wanted to do what I wanted and to wait for relationships.) I thought I had it good. After a year and a half at college something snapped and I started reverting back to my old self, slowly at first. When I got to a certain point I went back to a T and got myself a psychologist. And it's been a year and a half at my T. I don't go out, I don't socialize even with my father that I live with. If we talk it ends in an argument with me having flashbacks and raging emotions that I can't control. I barely eat and sleep. So, yeah, I guess that's my story.

I wouldn't beat yourself up too bad about it. I think that any of us here could probably relate about how it always seems like it's three steps forward and two steps back.  It's good that you realize things that you do consciously or unconsciously. It leaves room for improvement when you know what you do.

Melodie

[Phoebes]

Thank you, Melodie. These emotions can certainly be intense. It's been a long time since I was college age and I was nowhere near aware of all of this. It's taken me completely blocking my rage-inducing parent to gain better perspective. I immediately felt more relaxed just to have the non-threatening space to be. I could never have a conversation with my Nm that wasn't triggering. She purposely brought things up in order to gaslight me. And then when I said something back (even in a normal tone, not rageful) she would lay into me telling me how I hold a grudge and don't forgive and live in the past. Every time. Enough of that.

Your're right- three steps forward one two steps back.

[ah]

Yes (no pun intended). Oh boy can I relate to what you say. The answer was always no, I still asked sometimes but I knew every time I really had no choice but to ask for something it would induce abuse. There's nothing sadists love hearing more than a request or an expressed need. Sigh.
Yeah, we learned not to ask. But we still all depend on one another to survive, so it's such hard place to be.

Re. religious messages, personally I have an aversion to them because of religious abuse, but I do care about ethics (real ethics, not the make pretend ethics of religious abusers) so I sort of separated them in my head: mock values on one side, real values on the other. I refuse to let my religious abusers take away my values.

But religious messages about being happy and thinking positively, letting things go, create your own reality, mother's love... they're all mighty triggers for me. Maybe for you too. Partly because I think they're overly simplified and overly optimistic but I realize they may be very encouraging and soothing for other people. Maybe for people who don't have some big pain that's out of their control right in the middle of their lives? For me though they're really painful.

I usually "translate" these messages in my head whenever I hear them. Like: "mother's love" turns into "a generic, safe, good enough, empathic, boundary-setting mother's love". Not my own mother, but the mother I can imagine I might want to have had. A mother I'd wish every child in the world could have.

Or: "create your own reality" is translated into "watch closely how you interpret your experiences. Remember you have no control over the things that happened to you, not even your fight/flight response is under your control. But now that you're aware of it all, self educate and learn to be kind to yourself. That's creating your own reality." 

I wish it could be easier for us both.

[Nora]

Hi, guys!

IMO people who spout forgiveness and mother's love have not been abused.  They have no frame of reference whatsoever.  The unforgivable was not done to them.  And some  things ARE unforgivable.  The people who love us try to understand, but it has been my experience that abusive parents (especially the subtle, sneaky variety) confuse them, as if it's impossible that they really exist.  "Everyone's mother drives them crazy."  "It's in the past."  "You'll be sorry you didn't forgive her when she dies." 

During my life, the people who have said that have made me feel small and wrong.  But their inability to understand a situation they have not experienced is not a failing in us.  I try not to confide in people who cannot possibly understand, even though they may really want to.  Their solutions are simplistic and only hurt me further.  I think above all, we must protect ourselves from further hurt.

You aren't through by a long shot, Phoebes!  You have time and talent and strength of character.  You will heal.  You have more of all good things than the "people" who abused you do.  Hang in there.  You are valuable.
Nora

[Blueberry]

The other truly dysfunctional aspect of this that makes me want to hurl now is all this time when I would make art, I would give the best to my uNm. I wasn't consciously seeking her approval, but I do this subconsciously I was hoping she would "see" me and approve and LOVE me. I enjoyed making gifts and made them for others too, but I consciously made things just for her, or gave her my favorite. How sick is that?

I used to do something similar for abusive M too. You're not alone.

[DecimalRocket]

It's tough to ask for things for much of all of us. We internalize the shame of our abusers in frightening ways. You're not alone. Really. For a long time, it didn't even cross my mind that I could do a better job about creating boundaries with myself and others. I'd withdraw instead of confronting others — because I'd never trust they'd care.

To many others, the hardest thing is to get out of their "comfort zone", and growing means toughening. But to us with trauma, many of us don't even have a comfort zone to go into, and growing means slowing down. Taking it easier. And resting.

Rest is precious. Take care. 

[Libby12]

You are absolutely right,  Phoebes.   No is always the answer for people who were emotionally abused.   

Throughout my childhood,  I was very unhappy,  but my parents told me constantly that, NO, I was not unhappy, I was just ungrateful.  So I accepted that really.

As I got older, met my dh, married,  got a house, had my children and so on, I was told NO!  You are not happy!  They did all they could to make sure I was not happy.  Nothing that ever happened to me was acknowledged as a happy event, or they behaved so badly that everything was spoiled and became unhappy.  If I was then unhappy,  I was told to pull myself together.

No wonder we are so damaged.

I like your idea,  Decimal Rocket,  that we don't have a comfort zone.  Before I learned of cptsd,  I had never thought of this, but now I am doing much better at deciding and doing what makes me happy and comfortable.  I hope everyone else finds these things too.

Libby

[Phoebes]

I'm glad so many can relate (well, not glad, but grateful?) There are a lot of dynamics to this idea. And I still find myself telling myself I am just being silly. It's all in the past (thinking of these instances where I was told no). When I have protested or mentioned even a tiny bit of it to the one dishing out the no's, she always snaps back with "well that's YOUR fault if you didn't do what you wanted." I distinctly remember major abuse for even voicing a want, and there was no way I was going to drive myself places as am 8-14 year old against her permission. That could have very well been death, so I felt (and in reality).

I get tired of getting triggered. I'm not as majorly triggered as I was, but still. There are so any layers. For instance, I recently watched a documentary about skateboarders. Skateboarding is something I wanted to do. I was, and am, a skateboarder at heart (although now that I'm old and have had surgeries and don't bounce back like I used to, it's not like I'm going to make up for it start skateboarding on ramps lol).At the time, I simply asked for a skateboard when asked what I wanted for christmas, for several years in a row. I always got what SHE wanted me to have, that was not me, but that's a different topic.

Then, near my house in the 70's they opened this awesome skatepark. Whenever we would drive by I'd see the kids my age skating on it, and I'd get excited and beg for them to let me go. Not only was it no, but it was berating, ridicule, I could never do that, don't be ridiculous, stop asking because it's always going to be no, etc. I can understand some parents are too protective. That's one thing. But why the NEVER understanding that this was something that mattered to me. I notice GOOD parents would at least let the kid skate, with helmet and elbow pads if they are so worried about safety, at the house, and let them build up to taking them to and supervising them at the skatepark. I'm sure she was not even slightly curious about what a skatepark was, she was worried what people would think if I did that. No kid of hers was going to be that "type."

I am rambling, but just to illustrate, there are so many triggers that get going deeper than just the no. The constant no's were presented as concern. But they were simply a way of not seeing me and shutting me down. Of making sure I felt my wants did not matter. And they were often cruel as well. Thank you for letting me vent a little in this forum. Seriously, you guys are the only ones who can relate.

[Knopssos]

I think I can relate to this, im sorry you're in such a bad way because of it. I'm in the same way, not that that helps, but you're definitely not and never will be alone in what you feel. I was given a no at every turn, basically the only things that I could do as a child were things that I could do on my own. I really took to video games, whole worlds where you feel control over yourself with no ones limitations on you was a freedom I went for in virtual reality since I could achieve it in actual reality. Now though, I feel so wrong, turned up inside that whenever someone likes me, why. I don't get it. I get that same imposter feeling that you do, I think. I was made to believe I was so horrible I can't trust that people like me, for me they must want something because it was banged into that I was a creature. Somehow it feels like it prevents me from dating, being real around others, even though people like me openly I don't believe them, really. You can't really make anyone who hasn't experienced something similar to understand, and there advice is good hearted but ultimately not going to hit home. It's not their fault, you really have to see what we've seen for that third eye to be open to it all so to speak.  That's okay though. I find the best thing is to relay how you feel but not ask for opinions, unless that person has had a similar understanding. I really hope you start to figure things out, I've been on the journey for almost two years now and it's just starting to look like I'm close to real freedom.

[Phoebes]

For a long time, it didn't even cross my mind that I could do a better job about creating boundaries with myself and others. I'd withdraw instead of confronting others — because I'd never trust they'd care.

To many others, the hardest thing is to get out of their "comfort zone", and growing means toughening. But to us with trauma, many of us don't even have a comfort zone to go into, and growing means slowing down. Taking it easier. And resting.

I've been thinking of what you said here a lot, Decimal Rocket. I think I've rounded a corner in my healing, not triggered lately, somewhat bland even. It's simply bland, as opposed to depressed. I don't even feel so depressed anymore. It's nice! I wish I had my passion for certain things back, but maybe that is another step. Maybe I need to be extra bland for a while. It feels soothing. I do feel like perhaps I'm developing a comfort zone.

I do still withdraw without confronting. Or withdraw without expressing. I do still have so much trouble with this. It is a huge mountain to climb. I stutter and physically can't speak when asserting something that I know will upset someone. I hate this about myself.

As far as the day to day, I'm feeling more relaxed. Made it through the holidays without feeling horribly depressed. I had a couple of moments but reminded myself of reality, and honestly, enjoyed myself and felt relaxed. I think this surprised me and started to make me feel uncaring and dead inside. But I think that dead inside feeling is more of a deep relaxation and acceptance. It's not a bad feeling, it's a good thing, and maybe I'm tapping into an acceptance that others are simply used to having, so they can go into the world pursuing what they want without all the nonsense at "home."

[LilyITV]

I can so relate to this feeling.  I learned early on to not ask for things because I knew that the answer would always be no--or that even if it was a yes, there'd be so much scrutiny, conditions and criticism attached that it wouldn't be worth it. 

One time when I was a child, I got invited to a party at Chuck E Cheese.  I remember the invitation and wanting so badly to go, but I knew my parents would never take me.  I remember holding on to the invitation though and wishing and dreaming about going.  I'm crying about that right now as I type.   It seems like such a small thing so I don't know why I am so emotional over it.