Peter Walker on Fight

[Badmemories]

I shorten this by copy and pasting this so the information is easier to understand.I then divided it into each response.

http://www.pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm

This model elaborates four basic defensive structures that develop out of our instinctive Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn responses to severe abandonment and trauma. Variances in the childhood abuse/neglect pattern, birth order, and genetic predispositions result in individuals "choosing" and specializing in narcissistic
(fight), obsessive/compulsive (flight), dissociative (freeze) or codependent (fawn) defenses.

Habituated 4F defenses offer protection against further re-abandonment hurts by precluding the type of vulnerable relating that is prone to re-invoke childhood feelings of being attacked, unseen, and unappreciated.

FIGHT TYPES

DEFINED
Fight types avoid real intimacy by unconsciously alienating others with their angry
and controlling demands for the unmet childhood need of unconditional love;
Fight types are unconsciously driven by the belief that power and control can create
safety, assuage abandonment and secure love. Children who are spoiled and given
insufficient limits (a uniquely painful type of abandonment) and children who are
allowed to imitate the bullying of a narcissistic parent may develop a fixated fight
response to being triggered.

ACTIONS
These types learn to respond to their feelings of abandonment with anger and
subsequently use contempt, a toxic amalgam of narcissistic rage and disgust, to
intimidate and shame others into mirroring them and into acting as extensions of
themselves. The entitled fight type commonly uses others as an audience for his
incessant monologizing, and may treat a "captured" freeze or fawn type as a slave or
prisoner in a dominance-submission relationship. Especially devolved fight types
may become sociopathic,

THERAPY
Treatable fight types benefit from being psychoeducated about the prodigious price
they pay for controlling others with intimidation.excessive use of power triggers a fearful emotional withdrawal in the other, which makes the fight type feel even more abandoned and, in turn, more outraged and contemptuous, which then further distances the "intimate", which in turn increases their rage and disgust, which creates increasing distance and withholding of warmth, ad infinitem. Fight types need to learn to notice and renounce their habit of instantly morphing abandonment feelings into rage and disgust. As they become more conscious of their abandonment feelings, they can focus on and feel their abandonment fear and shame without transmuting it into rage or disgust - and without letting grandiose overcompensations turn it into demandingness.

[Kizzie]

Hmmmmm, this doesn't sound like me although I have lashed out at PDs on occasion, even stomped out of a couple of jobs in a fit of anger when my boss was PD.  I'll have to think about this one a bit more.

[Annegirl]

I'm wondering if My mother was this instead of NPD? How can you tell the difference? She was also abused as a child and teenager.

[Badmemories]

From what I am understanding the FIGHT response does manifest itself as Narcissism.

DEFINED
Fight types avoid real intimacy by unconsciously alienating others with their angry and controlling demands for the unmet childhood need of unconditional love Fight types are unconsciously driven by the belief that power and control can create safety, assuage abandonment and secure love.

ACTIONS
These types learn to respond to their feelings of abandonment with anger and
subsequently use contempt, a toxic amalgam of narcissistic rage and disgust, to intimidate and shame others into mirroring them and into acting as extensions of themselves. The entitled fight type commonly uses others as an audience for his incessant monologizing, and may treat a "captured" freeze or fawn type as a slave or prisoner in a dominance-submission relationship. Especially devolved fight types
may become sociopath,

So, I think YOU are right on in Your assessment. C-ptsd People can be narcissistic. That is a case in point in MY family. I am freeze, and fawn. But My Sister was Narcissistic. Same Family different reactions to EACH of Our realities. I think part of the time I was the Golden child.. I am not sure I was a SG very often. NPDSis was a SG at least after My BRO committed suicide. 18 years old + And She is a fighter. So Of course that made NPDM harder on her.

NPDM was also Abused as a child. Sexually all the girls in the family were. MOM was a fighter, her other Sis is probably the people pleaser, and one Sis is a social worker, and One Sis is GAY after being married for 25 years, and sick all the time. Her Mom was depressed all the time and probably had Social Anxiety. Grandpa was the abuser, and controller.

I guess Abuse is the Gift that keeps on giving from Generation to generation.
green equals traits of Narcissim

[Annegirl]

Oh that is really interesting thank you badmemories, one of my mums sisters is gay too, has been as long as I can remember. She is very kind to me and I feel closer to her than to my mother. She's became anti men thanks to abusive father I reckon

[Badmemories]

I really have 2 aunts that are Gay. I also had 2 uncles that were GAY. I like both of them! Then My NPDSis accused me of calling her gay  >. during one of our fights. Come to find out when I was talking to Daughter about it D said didn't you know? NPDSis was supposed to tell You about 4 years ago. I was shocked. I mean she has always been with a man.

I was a hairstylist for 22 years, I met many Gays.. They are so fun to party with! 

[emotion overload]

From what I am understanding the FIGHT response does manifest itself as Narcissism.

DEFINED
Fight types avoid real intimacy by unconsciously alienating others with their angry and controlling demands for the unmet childhood need of unconditional love Fight types are unconsciously driven by the belief that power and control can create safety, assuage abandonment and secure love.

ACTIONS
These types learn to respond to their feelings of abandonment with anger and
subsequently use contempt, a toxic amalgam of narcissistic rage and disgust, to intimidate and shame others into mirroring them and into acting as extensions of themselves. The entitled fight type commonly uses others as an audience for his incessant monologizing, and may treat a "captured" freeze or fawn type as a slave or prisoner in a dominance-submission relationship. Especially devolved fight types
may become sociopath,

Pete doesn't have a good opinion of the fight type, from what I can tell.  He doesn't give them a high chance of recovery.  I believe that uBPD late husband was this.  I was certainly a freeze/fawn type kept submissive and controlled by him. 

I also think my brother tends towards this F.  We have a good r/s, but that is mostly b/c I am easy-going (sometimes fawning), and don't challenge him.  I don't think he has fully blown N, but he's way higher up on the spectrum than me.

[Blueberry]

I'm reinstating this really old thread because - alas - I am in Fight response again.

"Habituated 4F defenses offer protection against further re-abandonment hurts by precluding the type of vulnerable relating that is prone to re-invoke childhood feelings of being attacked, unseen, and unappreciated.

FIGHT TYPES

DEFINED
Fight types avoid real intimacy by unconsciously alienating others with their angry
and controlling demands for the unmet childhood need of unconditional love;
Fight types are unconsciously driven by the belief that power and control can create
safety,.....

ACTIONS
These types learn to respond to their feelings of abandonment with anger and
subsequently use contempt, a toxic amalgam of narcissistic rage and disgust, to
intimidate and shame others into mirroring them and into acting as extensions of
themselves. The entitled fight type commonly uses others as an audience for his
incessant monologizing, ...

THERAPY
Treatable fight types benefit from being psychoeducated about the prodigious price
they pay for controlling others with intimidation.excessive use of power triggers a fearful emotional withdrawal in the other, which makes the fight type feel even more abandoned and, in turn, more outraged and contemptuous, .... Fight types need to learn to notice and renounce their habit of instantly morphing abandonment feelings into rage and disgust. "

I've put the things that particularly struck me while reading in bold.

Not in any particular order: incessant monologizing - my posts on LETS are pretty long - like a monologue.
unconsciously alienating - I don't notice that I'm driving people away e.g. in LETS it's not till afterwards that I ask: "Why did I get a reprimand??" which is that prodigious price they pay for controlling others.

control can create safety: my belief that "rules" will somehow make things safe, because of my long-term inability to set limits and fear of doing so.

contempt, a toxic amalgam of narcissistic rage and disgust, to intimidate and shame others into mirroring them and into acting as extensions of themselves - this struck me at first because of contempt. I could hear once again B1 professing his contempt for me: I hold nothing but contempt for you because ... whatever. Probably my lack of powers of reasoning. 
But dig a little deeper: do I have contempt for people? I do find it very very difficult to understand why people in LETS don't understand my viewpoint.  Most of my viewpoint is very much supported by the Rules and Regs. Those rules for safety.... But leave that aside and try to put myself in the shoes of people who don'T see my viewpoint and avoid feeling contempt for them because of their inability..... Or their unwillingness because LETS means something different to them. Atm I won't dig any deeper because I also know of the danger of destabilising when I dig too far. But I need to be aware at least cognitively of what could be alienating other people, even people who did agree with me but wouldn't do it openly because maybe I went too far for them, too extreme?? too harsh??

I do feel enraged when people can't follow logic. Undoubtedly because outside FOO I was one of those "children who are/were allowed to imitate the bullying of a narcissistic parent" because unfortunately I did not learn much else at home. There was no prominent example of any other way of dealing with people. Only from F, when M and B1 weren't around. It's only in hindsight that I realise why F sometimes supported me but mostly didn't. At the time it was inconsistent and incomprehensible and therefore unsafe. And it felt like a betrayal. But I digress, I was looking at my own behaviour, not FOO's.

contempt, a toxic amalgam of narcissistic rage and disgust, to intimidate and shame others into mirroring them and into acting as extensions of themselves: ah ha, that's new for me: contempt is a mix of rage and disgust. No wonder it felt so bad when I was a teenager and was either shown contempt in FOO or it was actually verbalised.
When I was disappointed that nobody openly supported me in LETS, was I expecting them to act as extensions of myself?? Could be. Not sure.

That's enough for now. I know the dangers of looking at too many of my shortcomings or possible shortcomings all at once and destabilising myself.

I want to add that I don't agree with the idea that somebody who acts out Fight Type is NPD. You can act like a narcisst without being one, imho. I also act like a Freeze Type and a Fawn Type. For my healing, it would be good to find out: what is the trigger situation that tends to set off Fight Type (rather than Freeze and Fawn).

[ah]

I want to add that I don't agree with the idea that somebody who acts out Fight Type is NPD. You can act like a narcisst without being one, imho.

Me too, I agree with you 100%. I don't think being stuck on fight mode because you're traumatized and in pain makes you narcissistic.

Just my two cents:

I guess the difference (to me?) is that anyone can be stuck on fight mode when they're threatened hard enough. Not only narcissists. And as the survivor of a long list of narcissists and psychopaths, I find the idea that I'd be called a narcissist upsetting.
I can fight, I can express contempt when I'm very triggered. Contempt is a basic emotion all human beings can feel, it isn't just for npd's... we all share it. If it's stuck on all the time there's a problem but if it comes and goes I think that's a different story.

The way I see it, I was treated with so much contempt my whole life that I've learned that dance far too well.
But the difference is I feel bad about it when I do it, I do everything I can to calm down, I own it, apologize, make amends when and where I can. I self educate. I constantly put a lot of effort into learning to manage my trauma and pain.

And the most important difference is when I'm not triggered I don't fight. I never fight out of boredom or because I enjoy fighting. I enjoy loving, not fighting. So - not a narcissist.
And neither are you, methinks.

In my experience, it's very possible for children of narcissists to be narcissists too. My siblings are narcissists, or so they seem. I don't want to get close enough to know just how bad it is in their case as adults, they're not safe people. But that's not the same as equating fight - cptsd responses with npd, I think.

Also, remember the F responses aren't just exaggerated? They also have their healthy versions. There's healthy fight response too. The 4 F's aren't enemies to get rid of, I guess. They're more like habits to break in, to fine tune.

You're angry. Your boundaries were violated. You took a stand and that's so scary, so unsettling, but you did it all the same. I'd be mightily triggered right now if I were you, for quite some time till the dust settled.

Even perfectly secure, self assured people feel unsettled when they assert themselves in a conflict. conflicts are a scary business. And then I guess we get into internal monologues till we "digest" things. Write long explanations. Also lose control... feel overwhelmed. It takes time.
It doesn't make you npd, it makes you very, very human, in my eyes. I think being willing to look at all this with clarity is courageous.

[Blueberry]

Thank you ah very much for reading and then writing such a long validating response, with information I didn't know. Like narcisstic people fight out of boredom. i don't do that. You're right, I apologise and make amends for my behaviour too. I don't think contempt is my number one go-to emotion or even no. 2 or 3.

Your idea of fine-tuning our 4 Fs is interesting too - a new angle on them. I guess I'm with the people here on the forum who are frightened of turning into their parent-abuser. Wouldn't want to be like M or B1 in fact. My brain has just gone blank. That means I've been thinking about this topic for long enough today.

I just want to let you know that I really really appreciate your answer. I will come back to it. I often re-read what I wrote and people's responses. That helps me progress and see my own progress.

[radical]

It seems to me that every person has every response in themselves, and we need all of them in their healthy forms.  The four types are where those of us with CPTSD get stuck in self-protection mode.

Blueberry, I only know you via what you write here, but I'd bet the house that you are not narcissistic. Fight is not your comfort zone.

It's okay to be angry.

I wish I could communicate in a way that you could take it in, that you are perfectly imperfect, like all of us, and completely okay.

[Blueberry]

It's okay to be angry.

I write that to others on here too, but haven't quite got the message for myself yet. Anger was the only emotion generally permitted when I was growing up, but my anger was much less permitted than everybody else's anger. So I must still be struggling with that.

I wish I could communicate in a way that you could take it in, that you are perfectly imperfect, like all of us, and completely okay.

Hmm. What might be getting in the way here is that to take that in, I believe that I would then have to see abusive and/or neglectful FOO members as perfectly imperfect and completely okay. I'm not quite that far along yet.

[radical]

I used to feel that the only way I could see myself as being okay, was if I felt every member of humanity was okay.  For me it was a kind of 'servant's entry' or back-door self-acceptance and left me wide-open to abuse from others.

Now I feel that I need to accept myself as intrinically okay, no matter what I feel about anyone else in particular or humanity in general.  It may be that a kind of universal love for all people comes from a deep self-acceptance.  I've felt this at times - it's not based on denial or naivety, but broadening compassion from the inside out.  But it never worked for me the other way around, no matter how hard I tried.  It was in reality a kind of self-serving sentimentality, not acceptance, but wishful thinking and turning a blind eye, a splitting-off of painful truths, leading inevitably to betrayal-blindness.

edit: when I said all of us, I meant to write all of us 'here'.  Ie in this community, and genuinely striving to recover from CPTSD.

I believe (more broadly) that all of nature, including all people, are intrinsically okay, but always reserve the right to withdraw trust, or fail to bestow it based on experience.  There was a saying I read about boundaries being the distance from which we can safely love others.  Sometimes, that might be from different continents.  I like that.  I find tigers beautiful but would not be feeling the love if a wild tiger was in this room.

As always, this is just where I'm at.