Fight response

[Rainagain]

Just in case anyone else gets fight triggers. Had one Christmas eve, drunken idiot being racist, It wasn't directed at anyone, but it was hateful.

Someone pointed out to me that I was poised to jump on him, I hadn't fully realised I was just about to do exactly that, I was just aware how much I hated what I was hearing.

This out of control feeling is why I don't like to socialise. Not sure what my body will do or if It will get provoked.

[Three Roses]

I used to think I just had a bad temper. I finally realize what actually happens, pre-thought ... triggers, physical reaction, body pumped full of adrenaline, the sense of imminent danger. Do I slow down and look at what just sent me into this, and trust that I'm safe? Or do I continue the self defense, am I really in danger?

This is the reaction that makes me feel the worst about myself. Even if I don't say anything, even if no one knows I'm angry, when it is over it leaves me in the grip of shame.

[Rainagain]

Yup

Exactly, it happens without my 'permission' and is potentially really self shaming. If I can't trust my own reactions what am I doing out in the world at all?

Oh well.

[LearnToLoveTheRide]

Hi.

Got some experience with this as well. Some good, some, well, not particularly proud of.

It's the body's Fight, Flight or Freeze response mechanism. Under experimental conditions it's been found that it takes the lower cortical structures, or the Reptile brain 45ms to register a stimulus AND to initiate what it considers to be an appropriate response, including but not limited to the release of hormones, activation of PNS, and even muscular responses.

This is hardwired into us and everything we experience goes through these channels. The primary sensory cortex communicates directly with the primary motor cortex.

It takes the prefrontal cortex over 300ms to register a stimuli. Only then can it initiate a response. It is the highest cortical function and structured very differently to the lower functions. It receives its input and responds via these lower networks.

So. The body always reacts first and then thinks. What about chronic high stress situations and the operators that must function there?

After a new stimulus and response activation is encoded into the PFC - through repeated, reality-based training - this response becomes embedded in the lower cortical networks. Hence the process referred to as: making the response instinctual.

It served as well when we wandered with sabre toothed tigers and it serves high stress operators still but for the majority of us it can be a problem. It can get us into trouble with the law, or if activated too often, too frequently and not allowed to deactivate, it develops into C-PTSD. So, for us, it's both a cause and effect of our behaviors.

Primarily, be safe, short term and long term. LTLTR.

[Rainagain]

That makes sense to me.

My reptile brain was 'on' for a couple of years I think. Hence cptsd.

I like to be in control, trouble is, so does my amygdala......

And its got a head start of 255ms? I'm at the back of the race from the get go.

Need to ponder this a bit.

I used to be the law, now I'm likely to end up on the wrong side.

I had no plan with the guy who triggered me, not my business, not even sure its a hate crime in the new country I live in. what the * was I thinking?

His two chums wouldn't have just watched either, would have been messy.

[Blueberry]

I get into fight response quite a lot too, but it's with my words. That's what I grew up with. It's a fine line between when do I actually need to defend myself and my interests and when would it be better to keep quiet. As I think and type "keep quiet", I can hear M saying that. I was to 'keep quiet' growing up.

Often when I really ought to be defending myself in some way e.g. speaking up at work (when I was still employed in some form), I keep quiet.

Unlike you though Rainagain, my body doesn't show it apparently. My body shows more 'I am small, I'm hiding'.

The shame's still there though. Either: "there I go, fighting again." Or: "I'm weak, no backbone."

[Three Roses]

The key for me has been mindfulness. When I'm dissociated its much easier to let myself be swept away in a fight reaction. Or, flight or freeze or, my 2nd least favorite, fawn.

But if I'm in touch with my body, I feel the reactions and can see the reason behind them. Tense muscles, heart pounding, shallow breathing, defensive postures, are all more subtle signs than feeling like I want to punch someone in the throat.

But there are times that the rage sweeps over me like a tidal wave and I want to lash out at the nearest thing!

Time, my age, and my gender are all factors that keep me from letting myself follow these impulses.

I have to say just talking about this feels really good! Thanks for the post, Rainagain. 😁

[LearnToLoveTheRide]

@Rainagain: You are correct on all counts: the amygdala can't completely evaluate a situation,  plan a response, or consider the consequences of a response - it doesn't possess the neuronal functionality to do so; his mates would not have played fair. If you're in a regulated sporting competition with an impartial judge, you can reasonably assume a level of fairness is being applied. Anywhere else? Not a chance.

Consider the following; I've personally found it to be quite true and more importantly, useful.

1.) Immediate, life threatening danger: fist being thrown at you; edged weapon thrusting towards you; firearm being deployed; car running an intersection; gas explosion; bomb or mass shooting; then a life saving 45ms response is warranted. When you primal do it to the maximum!

2.) Anything that requires 0.5s response or more, engage the PFC. Standing up, walking around a table to confront someone - warranted or not - engage the PFC. Evaluate the entire situation and your options fully.

3.) Sometimes 1 followed closely by 2 is the most appropriate course of action.

Here's a useful trick: program a PFC code word into your head. Mine is 'Monk'. When I was on active duty and we engaged in a crisis situation my partner and I would code each other out of a primal response - if required. If you have a trustworthy friend that you usually socialise with you can ask them to code you if you go primal.

Be safe. LTLTR

[LearnToLoveTheRide]

@Blueberry: 'I am small, I'm hiding.' That's freeze. Same thing happens to the parasympathetic nervous system PNS. it's still trauma and the body's internal responses still stack up against you in the long run and damage you systemically.

Add to that the habituated demand to suppress your emotions through the repeated instruction to 'be quiet' and you have no way of letting your body return to a healthy homeostasis.

One thing I did notice, in Corporate, LE, Paramedic, MA, etc. is that actions always speak louder than words. 9/10 when we feel that we should have stood up for ourselves, and we feel like we let ourselves down because we didn't, well, most of those times we didn't need to: our overall actions - and those of the oppressor - ultimately speak for themselves.

'It all comes out in the wash'. Even when we don't think so.

When we examine our True Nature, either through mindfulness as Three Roses mentions, meditation, psychotherapy, or event reconstruction and direct intellectual evaluation of our actions, we find that we start to act in alignment with this Nature and our responses are always appropriate.

Of course, C- PTSD is a bit of a challenge to that. 

LTLTR

[Blueberry]

@Blueberry: 'I am small, I'm hiding.' That's freeze.

I know, but even when I'm fighting or defending myself, that's apparently what my body tends to signal. I have been working in T to change my posture and other body language.

I posted partly because I get blame for being verbally aggressive. FOO was big on this blame, but I get it from other people too. Probably I need to learn to unlearn what FOO said.

[Rainagain]

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies.

I'm really glad others recognise the issues, I'm so changed by cptsd that its hard to accept sometimes. I just feel bad about myself.

Talking about it really helps me.

[ah]

I can relate, I get these triggers too and I agree with every word Three Roses said.

I don't know if this will make sense but...

I feel so ashamed and full of self hatred because of anger, it's a feedback loop... anger -> anger at myself ->... not a good cycle to get stuck in. But somehow the forgiveness I can give myself when I freeze or dissociate is gone when I get angry. It's as though our culture has taught us that some stress reactions are moral and others are immoral. Anger is bad.
But it isn't, it's just anger. Feeling it is as human as can be. The challenge for me is to notice I'm angry without self hatred washing over me because then I'm in EF land, and then any ability to analyze my emotions and actions flies out the window. 

What sometimes helps is when I first notice my anger I intentionally freeze (so I don't act) and think "You have a right to be angry. Your anger is justified." this is so contrary to my whole life experience, and to my anger's indignation and rage at not being seen or heard, and it's so validating that it often seems to help weaken it.

I wonder, were you ever goaded into feeling angry or acting on it? Was your anger used against you? It may be very different in your case but for me, I think part of the reason anger is so painful is that my abusers throughout my life intentionally used my anger against me so my habit of shame and self hatred when I feel angry is pretty strong. So validating my anger sometimes helps me quite a lot, to my surprise. I guess it's so opposite to what anger is saying that it stops it in its track sometimes. The key is to freeze intentionally for those milliseconds that are required till I realize what's going on in my body.

Also swallowing seems to help. I read somewhere that it activates the parasympathetic autonomic system (the system that signals the fight / flight response that it's safe to calm down). Though the calming down mechanism in our body is much slower than the fight / flight mechanism. So getting triggered is extremely fast, but calming down the triggered anger is much slower. This isn't our fault, it doesn't make us weak or bad. It's just a biological fact. It's this way for everybody.

Part of the challenge for me is to manage to avoid being angry at myself for that time gap between the amygdala's response and the prefrontal cortex's response, and to make sure I don't buy into anger's story once I actually realize I've been triggered. Though realistically I'm sometimes deep in an EF before I notice anything is going on so it takes a lot of strength to breathe, swallow, think... but I do my best.

I remember reading once in a book by the Dalai Lama that he distinguishes between anger and hatred. Anger isn't always harmful, but hatred is. I don't feel hatred even toward my most sadistic abusers. I sometimes hold onto that, to remind myself I'm not a monster despite being called a monster. We're not bad tempered, we're wounded. In battles we didn't even realize we were fighting until we lost. 

Maybe anger is much more neutral than hatred. Anger comes and goes, and if we recognize it we can also try to find ways to relax its grip when it shows up too strongly. It's so much harder with cptsd but it's part of our recovery. A part that is maybe more shaming than dealing with freeze / fawn / flight but it's not really any different from them. It all stems from pain.

[Rainagain]

Wow,
So much wisdom in your post ah.

I've read it a few times but my mind is mush at the moment.

Need to read it again when I can actually process info, but thanks for this, important stuff.

[ah]

Wisdom? Me? No way...

I'll go tell my self hatred to be quiet now, if anything I've read about helps you too I'll be very happy. 

[Rainagain]

Wounded in battles we didn't realise we were fighting til we had already lost.

Wow, that is spot on.

Those who should have supported me harmed me, they behaved as enemies instead of being along side me during troubled times.

No wonder I feel anger, I have been betrayed and harmed.

I want to settle the score, but I will do it with acceptance of my anger rather than in hate.

I am better than a person who hates.

And my anger is actually justified and natural, except when it becomes diverted towards others who trigger me.