Verbal Vomit Receptacle

[marycontrary]

Ok...here is where I see your roommate having a big, big failure of empathy. Again, this is nothing to do with you...this appear to be faulty wiring in her. I have a few things you said that indicate she disregards your feelings (big red flag IMHO)


The cursing, the yelling at the TV.  I am reading, and with difficulty managing to concentrate but I am struggling

But, I feel violated, and stepped on and disregarded.

  I said "B that guy has no meaning to me I am not listening and I am busy, I am reading a book."  She says insisting now, "Just look at him, this is what my nephew J could be doing if he got into the right sports market."

She is so abrasive, and so loud, and so unhappy and so angry with the world. And she uses profanity a lot at max volume. She talks to herself non stop and it is difficult to tell when she is actually talking to me and not just herself. She is an alcoholic and occasionally abuses pills in combination with the alcohol, and can be so obnoxious that I end up confronting her the next day.  The talk always starts, "What do you remember about last night." Answer, "Nothing" It is nerve wracking to live with her.  And even a loud mouth stranger just ratchets up my anxiety level to the point I want to run, just run.

She had been asked numerous times to please not yell and scream or play loud music. But she just does what she wants.

Such as disliking my son sleeping on the couch every night.  He has reasons and they are mental, which I tried to explain, but then she simply wanted me to fix him and I declined.  He is 30.  If he wants to fix his problems then he will have to do it on his own.  But it may be irreparable damage.  He's overdosed 3 times.

And she disliked that my son and grandson do not do much around the house. Not her stuff.

And she disliked how I talk to my son sometimes and that she was embarrassed for him.  Not her stuff.

[VeryFoggy]

WOW Marycontrary!  Wow!  Yes, now I "see" it.

I talked to my sister a long time tonight, who is somewhat damaged, as she is the GC in our NPD family, but she offered some good insights.  She felt it was simply time for my roommate to move out. She said I had done my job, and offered her a way station, but it was never supposed to become her home, and now it was time for the roommate to move on. We are a big group of friends, and we all talk, and interact, so whatever anyone does impacts the rest of us.

But I have been less involved, came late to the group, and to the party, and what I finally heard between the lines is that no one else would take my roommate on.  Even though they are all closer, and all knew her better than me. No one else would do it. So everybody else is sort of standing back waiting for the big explosion, and sort of admiring me for doing it, but at the same time going, "Small doses of that one is all I can take."

So tonight I feel much better! I see clearly how I am not helping this woman anymore.  I am contributing to her staying sick. By providing her with a diversion (my family) that she can come in and try to fix, then I am distracting her from her time and ability to focus on herself and her own life.

So it time for me to move out of the way.  She is gone now on another jaunt. And when she comes back, if she does not suggest moving out, then I am going to insist on going month to month on the lease until she finds a new place, and just say, 'It is better for me." Because that is the truth. My job is done.  I did a good thing.  I gave her place to stay and to find herself.  But if she refuses to find herself, and adopts me as her new pet project, then I am no longer helping and I am hurting. So if I keep trying to make myself become a home for her? Then I am ruining her chance to find herself.  I will be giving her a distraction from herself.

There is nothing wrong with what I did, offer her a temporary home, but now I have to get out of the way. I cannot fix her and I do not want to be fixed. I think I need to get practical and logical. Get my feelings out of it. I was simply a way station and it is now time to move on.

[schrödinger's cat]

       

Also, she seems to be either projecting or holding you up to impossible standards. I had this from my ex-best friends once. From what I pieced together over time, it all boiled down to this: they were single (and hating it) and I had a fiancée. There's a form of envy that consists NOT in wanting what the other person has, but in holding them up to impossible standards --- and the least little thing they then do wrong, WHAM comes the criticism. It wasn't pretty.

She said I was very negative and it was really bothering her.  ... As my BF has often commented that my roommate is one of the most negative people he has ever met. ... Why do they accuse you of what they are doing?  Do they know?

No, but people do that a lot. They project their own unacknowledged dark side onto others. In fact, the very reason they're in denial about their own fault is also the reason why they're projecting it onto others: it's because there's an enormous pressure inside of them to vilify the whole issue and to push it away and to NOT EVER let it be true about themselves - because if it were true, then their whole sense of identity would come crumbling down. I'm picturing it like this: a certain behaviour etc has this HUGE sh*tstorm of negativity and criticism attached to it - and since it CANNOT be acknowledged in themselves, it kind of earths itself in any (real or imaginary) manifestation in others.

The way it happened to me was, my ex-best friend accused me of cutting ties with her and dropping her. Totally out of the blue. There was no reason. I'm loyal to a fault. I asked my husband (who knows both of us well) to go over what I'd said and done and e-mailed, and he was just as baffled as I was. THEN she cut ties with me. She just dropped me. Without explaining anything, of course, so I had the added joy of having my CPTSD-related abandonment issues triggered. I'm SO crap at picking friends.

Then she said I am superior acting, that I act as if I am superior to others "all the time".

Projecting, projecting, projecting. Maybe she feels inferior to you AND THEN thinks that this MUST be caused by something outside herself, namely you. Maybe she blames you for something inside herself, something you don't have anything to do with. Maybe she isn't very self-aware.

With some people, one needs what we call (in my language) a "safety-distance" - it's what you keep to dangerous machinery or traffic accidents. I wish you all the best. Will you tell us how it's going? Only if you want to, of course.

[VeryFoggy]

Thank you so much for your response Schrodingerscat.  I had to mull it all for a few days to get clarity.  And I still keep getting these annoying attacks of fist around heart squeezing. I am not diagnosed, but I only feel and believe certain people and actions trigger me into becoming someone I am not. That is not me.  It is the result of something that happened to me. But I continue to believe I can get better, I can overcome it, and I can become the person I want to be.

Yes you are right.  Everything you said is right and correct and true. But what I have finally starting looking at, belatedly, is that it is not my fault. It is sad, and I feel sorrow to be so misconstrued, and so misunderstood, but it is not my fault. It is her decision to do this.  She has a choice. She can believe I come in peace, or she can believe I come with an agenda and choose to be offended and angry.

I do think she does feel a certain way such as inferior, and then manufactures why it might be my fault why she feels that way.  I read that about Narcissists in a book recently and it was a revelation. That they have a feeling, and then try very hard to make the facts fit. I don't know.  I just know she seems to grasp at straws to make the world make sense, and it felt very keenly like she wanted me to be the bad guy. That it was impossible that she could possibly have done anything wrong or offensive. It was me.  I was negative, I was superior, I had a personality disorder.  THAT was the reason why I found her drinking and drugging and language offensive. If I did not have all of these problems, then it would be okay with me for her to act as she does. That is how it feels. That she is trying to convince me that she does not have a problem, and if I would just loosen up, lighten up, then I would understand that it is okay for her to steam roller over me and my family.

So I have found MUCH comfort in marycontrary's recommendation of Ajan Brahm.  I have only listened to two talks, but even though he is a monk, and I am person of the world, I find much similarity in his views and mind. but he says it so well, and he just confirms all my thoughts. Much he says I already do, and it is affirming, and helpful, and makes me feel I am on the right path. I am going in the right direction.

What I do see clearly after talking to a couple of friends is that I am the scapegoat once again. I have been elected or maybe, probably, self elected to tell this woman she has a problem, and she needs to get help, or at least start trying herself to try to deal with it.  Nobody else will do it.  Why they stay friends with her is a mystery to me. But she throws money around like there is no tomorrow.  Like buying them all tickets to an Elton John concert and hiring a limo... Stuff like that.  So maybe they keep her on for what she can do for them.  But they won't take her into their homes...

So I was elected, or self elected. Because I think everyone in the friendship circle knows I am not affected by displays of money.  I  have my own, enough, enough to be content.

I do not know why it this way, but it is. So what I do know is that I am going to tell her when she comes home that we are at a fork in the path, and our path does not run together, or in the same direction, and that we must part. And I will tell her I trust her to run her own life and she must trust me to do the same.

And I will care, but I will not get too close because it hurts. To quote Ajan Brahm, Love the tiger, but at a distance.

[schrödinger's cat]

What I do see clearly after talking to a couple of friends is that I am the scapegoat once again. I have been elected or maybe, probably, self elected to tell this woman she has a problem, and she needs to get help, or at least start trying herself to try to deal with it.  Nobody else will do it.

Oh, I know that impulse. It's a bit of a challenge sometimes, saying "no, this is too difficult, I'm going to walk away". Maybe CPTSD just causes all our standards to be out of whack? Our 'normal' is other people's 'oh dear heavens NO', maybe that explains it? I've had a few friendships where, in hindsight, I'm slapping my forehead at how long I just said nothing to all kinds of behaviour that I shouldn't have just ignored. You're WAY more proactive and aware than I was. I like how fair you are to your friend - you're evidently taking great pains to avoid hurting her unnecessarily.

[marycontrary]

Oh, I am so happy for you! :applause:Yay!!!

One litmus test for me is if the person has empathy, that is, they are at least trying to get your point. Ever notice that there are certain people that don't seem to "get" what you are saying on a chronic basis? Doesn't care about working to solve the problem. In my experience, these type of people are bad, bad news to let into one's personal territory. Every time.

[VeryFoggy]

Schrodinger's cat - Thanks for the cheers!  I need all the cheerleaders I can find these days.  I am stumbling along doing the best I can, and expecting the worst and hoping for the best. And it is hard because the past makes us second guess ourselves, and not trust ourselves to make the right choices.  We were always told we were wrong. So inside is that eager Inner Critic always challenging us every step of the way, and telling us what a bad person we are if we choose ourselves over another person.

Marycontrary - Same to you, thank you so much! The thing is we can't solve the problem. She told me that. I tried to focus on behavior, and changing behavior in my letter, but even I was lying. The problem is she is a full blown raging alcoholic, and when I got honest about the behavior, her response was " I am an alcoholic."  And that was followed by, "I will not get counseling, I will not get help, and I will not work on it myself." Unspoken:  Deal with it.  This is me and I am NOT going to change.  You are going to change in order to accept me.

So I knew.  Right there I had my answer and my answer is, "No I won't live that way.  I could try if you would try, but you just promised me you won't try.  And it is not my job, it's your job, but if you won't do it, then you cannot stay here."

So she did promise to try, but every friend I have has counseled me, "Now you know she is going to fall, she is going to try, but she is going to fail okay? You understand that she can't do it right?"

And marycontrary, I want to say to you more than any friend I have, your recommendation of Ajan Braham has helped more than anything.  It is like some kind of miracle.  Every talk I listen to has something special and meaningful that DIRECTLY relates to my issues, and my problems, and how to solve them, and still walk away feeling good about it.  So thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU!

So Everybody - today I said it short and sweet.  I said, "When you moved in we never set a date for you to move out, and we did not discuss what our expectations were.  But in hindsight I think we should have.  My expectation was for 3-6 months, but I never said that.  So now I am, and now I do need us to set a date for your next steps on your path."

If you could even know how I was shaking saying it.  Who was I  to need and want something?  I needed, I wanted, I had expectations, oh awful terrible person me, to have needs and wants!  But I did it anyway, and it was not so well received. And there is sulking now and hurt.  But we have an agreement to go month to month after March 6th, as she has some issues that are going to take her out of town for a few weeks at some point in time in March or April, so I do not mind housing her things while she is gone, no problem. But I did it! Not a great speech, but I still stood up for me, and still tried as hard as I could to care for her and it is the right thing to do.

It was the right thing for me and the right thing for her as well.  She will now have so many more opportunities and reasons to shift her focus off of us becoming her next improvement project, and getting the focus back where it belongs, which is on what she needs to do to make her own life better. I think that is what they call Tough Love. But it is tough on everybody that is for sure.

[schrödinger's cat]

Yay!      That's a real milestone, isn't it? Congratulations! 

[marycontrary]

If you go back and read your fist posts on this thread,vs. now, it is not even the same person...do you see how quickly you have changed and empowered? You can see the "gaslighting" a toxic person with do to try to undermine your mental health. I am so proud of you.

And thanks so much about the dharma talks. When I had terrible nightmares and flashbacks, I would put ajahn brahn on a play list and just go back to sleep. He should keep you going for at least 6 months, but here is one even BETTER. Josh Korda, in my opinion gives the best dharma talks of anyone. Again, good non religious dharma talks are incredibly important for reparenting and rewriting very self destructive scripts. And you save a ton of money on therapy.

http://dharmapunxnyc.podbean.com/

[VeryFoggy]

Apparently my brief chat with my roommate about setting a target move out date was not taken seriously.  My sister is friends with this woman, and she is telling my sister that she intends to stay until May 6.  My thought was April 6.  But why?  Because she is trying to find a place to buy, not rent, and even if she found a place tomorrow, realistically it could take until May to close. Argh!  So now that is my problem?  I do not know how to handle that.

In any case even though it has only been 7 days since I last posted it feels like 7 months. That's the environment I am in.  I am surviving. But I am not living.

I am slipping back into old patterns of thought where I second guess myself all of the time, and wonder if I am over reacting, and am doubting things about myself.  I chastise myself for getting irritated or angry with my roommate, but then hours later realize wait a minute!  I have already told her this stuff many times!

I do not know what is going on. I do not know if she is doing things intentionally to irritate me, or if she is simply clueless and has no boundaries.  But she is doing it and I am wanting to control it and stop it and that feels WRONG, wrong of me.

She has been gone a lot. And goes out at night a lot.  And it still isn't enough. It's literally like every single thing she does now drives me crazy and I feel horrible about it.

She spent the weekend at my sister's house, and I called my sister last night to see how that went.  I guessed it went well and that she did not get drunk or incoherent, or obnoxious.  I guessed right.

But as soon as she arrived home I could tell she had been drinking heavily.  I was watching the only TV shows I ever watch, which is a few shows on Sunday nights.  My roommate has been told I watch these shows, and she has seen me watch these shows every week for 5 months. She has been told I am addicted, she has been told that they are important to me.

So she gets on the phone and is talking loudly to someone through most of the first show. And I can hear her much better than the show, and she is bitching and griping about not wanting to go on a trip to the hometown of a friend who died to memorialize her and honor her.  It's grating on my nerves.  She "loved" this friend s-o-o-o much!  But wants to do the memorial somewhere else.  Why?  because it's closer for her, more convenient for her.  My nerves are fraying from listening to her complain, and from missing my show.

It does not improve when she gets off the phone, she starts talking and talking about her weekend with my sister, and in the tiniest most minute detail, that is just annoying. Finally she stops talking.  This is well into hour 2 of the shows, and asks me what movie I am watching.  I explain it is not a movie it is the shows I watch every week, and now I am going to have to watch them all over again. She says "Oh, sorry" and then keeps talking, and commenting now on my shows!  Finally I see her face go slack, the eyes glaze over, the mouth fall open, and mercifully fall silent.  I go to bed simply to get away from her.

Last night I find out that she had stopped at a bar between my sister's house and mine and the bartender is friends with my son and the bartender told my son that my roommate had been doing shots and was drunk when she left. So now I know.

Which just irritates me all over again.  My roommate respected my sister enough to stay sober all weekend, but then could not even make it back to the house without getting smashed first on the way home.

Then yesterday I am talking on the phone, and she interrupts me, frantic gestures, repeatedly trying to get my attention.  I FINALLY say what is it? And she tells me she's going to put a load of clothes in the dryer!  *!  WHY did she have to interrupt me to tell me that?  I have told her over, and over, and over, I cannot talk to 2 people at once.  I never mastered that, I cannot do it.  I have even said, "Is the house on fire?"  Answer, "No".  Me:, "Okay I will talk to you later."  And she STILL does it!

Then, last night she wants to tell me some story about getting into an argument with her doctors about some surgery she is going to schedule. And it's on and on and on.  And finally after she says "I got pissy with them about it." for the 10th time.  Finally a light bulb goes off, and I realize once again she is drunk as a skunk. And I just say, "Well it sounds like you might need to find new doctors to do this surgery, because if you don't like them and don't trust them then you probably won't ever be happy with them."  She stops talking!  Yay!  Gives me an evil look.  Sits there a minute.  Then stands up and says good night and slams the door as she goes to her room.

The morning of the day before she went to my sisters house, my boyfriend came over to see me.   We went outside for some privacy, but every time I walked past her to come in the house and get us coffee or drinks she would stop me and try to engage me in a conversation about the details of her back surgery, a new app she had found that she knew I would just love, until I was simply furious with her.  I was trying to have some alone time with my boyfriend but nope, she was going to butt in and try to get my attention back on her. And each time she did it, I said, "I will talk to about this later," but she just kept on.

I am at my wit's end.  And I realize nobody ever answered my original question on this thread.  And that is:

How do you get these people to shut up and leave you alone???

Because she does it when she is sober too. Worse when she is drunk, but whatever she has to say is more important than anything else you could possibly be doing, and she MUST have and monopolize your attention. NOW!

I feel like selling the house and moving out and letting the next owners evict her. I feel driven into a corner with no place to turn and I do not know what to do. I am angry because I do not feel like I should have to leave my own home just to get away from her, but that's all I can come up with because polite requests do not work.

Any ideas?  I would like to survive until I can get her out of here, and I do have something to look forward to, but meanwhile my sanity is taking a beating.

[Kizzie]

How do you get these people to shut up and leave you alone??? Definitely hard to do if my PD FOO are anything to go by (which is a BIG reason why we moved to the opposite coast). That said, when you spoke your mind about the surgery biz she heard you lol!   

And I just say, "Well it sounds like you might need to find new doctors to do this surgery, because if you don't like them and don't trust them then you probably won't ever be happy with them."  She stops talking!  Yay!  Gives me an evil look.  Sits there a minute.  Then stands up and says good night and slams the door as she goes to her room.

That worked so perhaps just continue to be clear/blunt with her and also set a very firm move out date.  Alternately, is there any way she could go live with your sister until she finds a place? 

[voicelessagony2]

I know what I would probably do in this situation. Probably not the best advice, mind you, I am not exactly in a position to give advice, given my own journey to recovery is just beginning.

But, if it was me, I would set up my bedroom as my sanctuary, and go in there with MY tv, my computer, my phone, etc., and LOCK HER OUT. Only come out for food & bring it in there with me.

Then, do the opposite game. Do the exact opposite of whatever you have been doing that isn't working.

First, give her, in writing, a deadline to move out, and tell her you will begin eviction procedure if she does not comply.

Then, in the meantime, if she catches you on your way to get food, and starts babbling on and on about her problems, do this: get as close to her face as you physically can, and prop your chin on your hand, open your eyes wide open, smile, and say, "Go on?" "Fascinating!" "Oh, really, what happened next?" at slightly inappropriate times, like when she is mid-sentence. Channel Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka. I bet it will FREAK HER OUT. She might start avoiding you, or saving her stories for someone else.

I hope you don't think I'm being sarcastic or having fun at your expense in this situation. I'm being totally serious. It's a bit extreme, but since you seem to be near the end of your rope, maybe it's time to try something new? What if you figured a way to laugh at her expense, and saved your own sanity in the process?

[VeryFoggy]

Kizzie - Thanks and I am going to ponder your suggestion, which is, basically, loosely translated: fight a bull dozer with a bull dozer, Because my attempts at polite reminders are not working.  My sister told me to tell he to shut the F up.  But laughing.  It would be hard to laugh as I am not laughing anymore.  I am angry because I have been bulldozed so many times already. And NO she cannot go live with anyone else, nobody else will have her!  Nobody. Though funny story, the roomie told me this afternoon she was going over to my sister's again this evening.  My sister though she likes to have fun. also treasures her privacy.  We'll see how this works out if my roommate continues to run to my sister whenever I bulldoze her bulldozer. We'll see how hard my sister is laughing if these visits keep up.

Voicelessagony2 - Though an interesting idea, I cannot lock myself in my room for lots of reasons but the main one is I have to take care of my 11 year old grandson. Also I smoke like a chimney, and I do not allow that inside the home, only in the sunroom, which is an outdoor room with a fireplace. But I do like the humor idea.  I just have to scrounge around in my soul and find my sense of humor. So maybe I do not even have to actually laugh, just smile. But say what I think instead of the polite kind remarks.  I find it difficult to be what I perceive as rude, but I think it is time to be rude because kind politeness is having less than zero impact.  And having my boundaries and requests trampled only makes me feel despair that I am once again ignored, don't count, have no value, am worthless and not even worth paying attention to in my own home!

Also I dimly remember something about copying what they do, using the same words, tone, actions, do it right back, and it is supposed to shut them right up. This is for PD's not normal people, but I am pretty sure this woman is a flaming PD and I suspect Narcissistic as she seems to be the only person who ever matters.

I will think on both ideas which are similar, and give it a try. It will be completely out of character, but if it restores my dignity then it would be worth it.  Thanks to you both for the ideas!

[Kizzie]

Fire up that giant yellow bulldozer inside and move that PD roomie right out of there as soon as you can!  Good luck   

[C.]

VF-I just wanted to say that I have a very gentle personality so I was a little worried about "matching" someone's aggressive tone, but I recently went to a training about assertiveness at work that validates this discussion.  Basically when someone is being aggressive they cannot hear or respect someone on the other end of the continuum (passive) and even assertive needs to take on a more similar tone.  So I tried this strategy with my son recently and was surprised how well it worked.  His father is NPD and my son is a teen (so egotistical and some N traits are developmentally normal) so I've trying to "prevent" the same pattern for him.  When my son disrespectfully said "be quiet!"  I looked him straight in the eye and with a little bit of humor in my expression matched his tone saying "no, YOU be quiet."  It worked, he settled and was respectful the rest of the evening.  I've had numerous situations in the car or at home where I've used this strategy and it worked.  I know that the relationship is different, he's my son and will stay with me, but the behavior seems similar.  I had to laugh a little just now thinking that she's behaving like a teenage boy   I also had to use a similar strategy recently with a co-worker.  She never smiles and simply ignored me when I said something kind to her.  So I quit smiling with her, period.  It worked, she initiated a more appropriate conversation.  So when your roommate say ___________ in a specific tone, then matching her tone with Nope, __________.  I'll be curious to hear how it works for you, best of luck!