Stay or go? Deeply frustrated.

[voicelessagony2]

I saw this "Feelings Letter" in another thread, I think it was VeryFoggy who posted it (hugs to you, VF, I loved the title of your thread "Verbal Vomit"!! Ha! Totally on-target for what you described.)

I copied down just the section titles for the feelings letter, and I'm about to write some stuff down. I printed 2 blank feelings letters, allowing one page per section, so me & bf can each write our thoughts down. Seemed fair.

I'm still trying to calm myself down from a full blown EF that happened when my boyfriend (I'll refer to him as "R") came home from work yesterday and asked me how my day was. I'm beginning to DREAD 5:00 PM. I start watching the time when I can see the shadows change direction, usually around 3:00 and my anxiety starts ramping up, knowing he will be home soon.

I'm going to try to stop making excuses for him, so what follows is my point of view about what happened when I tried to tell him how my day was, and it will be full of emotion and anger and probably blame - just so you know.

I told him I had a great day, because I talked to my friend Betty and she lifted my spirits.

R: Who is Betty?

Me: I thought I told you, we have been meeting or talking on the phone every Monday for some time now. She is sort of, a career coach, and she reached out to me on LinkedIn, and she's helping me for free. Well, we are helping each other. 

R: So, she's not a friend, then. ?

Me: Well...

R: You can't be friends, you've only known each other a few weeks. You are like, colleagues, professional relationship. Not friends.

Me: Well...

R: You said she lifted your spirits, were you feeling bad?

Me: Yes.

R: Why?

Me: (Panic has already started to rise) I always feel bad. Feeling bad is normal for me, that's how I feel when I wake up every day.

R: But, this morning you were all playful, so obviously you didn't feel bad this morning. You usually wake up all happy and talkative, and I'm the one that's more grouchy. So now you say you always feel bad? That doesn't make any sense.

Me: I'm always happy to wake up and see you... You make me happy. But the first moments of consciousness, and then after you leave for work, I am not happy. I've always been this way.

R: Well that doesn't make any sense.

There was more of that, I can't remember exactly how the rest went, but at the end I just felt defeated, and he remained confused. I tried my very best to explain, but I felt like a suspected spy being interrogated. My "voiceless agony" held my vocabulary and self expression hostage. I was 3 years old again, being screamed at for what seemed like absolutely no reason at all, frantically trying to guess what I had done wrong. I said something about the long-term effects of trauma, but he repeatedly interrupted me every time I tried to explain. The worst part was, by this point in the conversation, he could see the panic and hurt on my face, because I am CURSED with this splotchy red face that announces my every emotion to the world, I cannot hide my feelings no matter how hard I try. So, he sees me getting upset, and his reaction (as always in these situations) is to be angry or aggravated or frustrated or whatever, and he says, "I can see you are getting all hurt and I don't understand why. I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just asking questions, trying to understand. I'm NOT BEING A *." Just like I can't hide being hurt, he can't seem to hide his condescention.

So, I completely shut down... for a minute.

Then, partly because I didn't know what else to do, and partly to break the lingering dreary silence, I started talking about something else. I told him about how I am proud of myself for finding a new approach to exercise: setting my alarm to go off every hour, and when it goes off I drop whatever I'm doing and get on the exercise bike for a few minutes. Because little exercises many times per day are better than lots of exercise a few times a week. He said, "Oh, good." And turned back to his work.

I finished making my grocery list, and eventually got up and went to the store. Inside the store, there are giant pink and red heart-shaped balloons everywhere, giving me an instant kick in the gut feeling. I felt - still feel - a mixture of anger, despair, fear, and burning resentment.

Later, he came into the kitchen where I was cooking, and asked if he could help. That was a little glimmer of happy, but I smiled and said no, thank you, I got it under control. Then I started telling him about a story I heard on NPR podcast, and he immediately looked bored. He said, "Yeah we already saw a program about that a long time ago." Then he went back to his work.   

I'm looking at the first section of my letter: "What am I angry about." I'm going to need more than one page. If I can even find the words.

I think this relationship is doomed. The most basic foundation for EVERY relationship has to be communication. So, what happens when you can't even talk about communication? I've tried, and the end result was that he believes that he always communicates correctly, and I always misunderstand and misinterpret when I get upset. He refuses to own even the tiniest fraction of the shared responsibility of improving communication between us. I know this because a long time ago I told him, it's not WHAT you said, it's HOW you said it, and he lost his sh*t. He was indignant.  He was all like, "I said exactly what I meant perfectly! If you heard something else that's your problem!"

I'm going to ask my therapist, who is actually a proper social worker, where I can go to stay while I recover. I asked her the first time we met, if there was such a place for people like me with no kids, and I asked if there is a six year waiting list, and she said there IS a place, and I most likely would qualify, and there is no waiting list. I think that's what she said. I am going to check when I see  her on Thursday.

Wish me luck.

[VeryFoggy]

Voicelessagony - I am so glad the Feeling Letter appeals to you it really helps work through the anger, sadness, fear, regret, what you hope, and what you appreciate and are grateful for. I do hope you get your courage up to give it a try and you can even write a response letter to go with it - What you want your partner to say after they read the letter.

I wish you would read Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Venus by John Gray.  It will explain how you are communicating now and how some changes need to be made.  The hard part is you have to ask for it, and you have to help your partner understand what you need.  The main thing you need to do is tell him that you just need him to listen to you for 10 minutes, and that you don't need him to say or do anything, just listen.  Tell him that it will make you feel ever so much better if he just listens to you, then you vent.  Then when you finish, you tell him how much better you feel, and you thank him for listening, and you smile at him, and give him a big hug.  And you will feel good!

I do these almost everyday with my boyfriend, and he knows how to do it now, and he knows I don't want him to fix me, just listen, then he gets appreciation when I am done.  It is win-win and it works!

So I do hope it is not too late, but it made a huge difference for us.  We broke up in April last year and then slowly started doing this in June and it really helped us a lot. I did beg him to read the book too, and it took him a month but he did do it, because I said it would mean a lot to me. And he got lots of appreciation for doing that too.

So I do hope it's not too late and that this can help you, but yes the way your man is communicating with you is very frustrating to women, ALL women.  And he's NOT trying to be mean, he's from Mars and that's how they talk on Mars, and he actually thinks he's helping you!  So you have to help him learn how to listen to you the way you need him to, as you are from Venus and speak a different language.

I truly hope you seriously give this a try.  It saved my relationship.

[voicelessagony2]

Well we made it through yesterday and so far today, but he isn't home yet.

I didn't do anything with my feelings letter, and I'm glad. I showed my therapist this morning and she said ,yeah, you don't want to start out with the "anger" it will just make him defensive. That totally makes sense because every damn thing makes him defensive! This morning he asked if the trash was full, because it's trash day and that is his ONLY chore, which he avoids as much as possible by waiting until the trash is totally over flowing all of the 4 containers we have. The stench gets unbearable sometimes. Once I went on a two week trip to visit family, and the trash was full when I left, and when I came back it was still there! So my reply to his stupid question "is it full" was yes, the big container is COMPLETELY full, and one of the others is full, and it's starting to smell because it's been over a week and a half since it was taken out. He responded exactly how you would expect a 10 year old: "OK! OK! Fine, I'll take out the trash, GOD!!!"

I mean, sometimes I just want to scream, "You are a 35 year old grown * man, why can't you just accept a tiny fraction of responsibility without complaining?"

/rant

sorry thanks for listening, if anybody still is...

I hear you about the communication thing, the problem is he won't read it, or he will and then he will say, "Yeah, I already do all of this." Been there. He is absolutely incapable of imagining a world where he does not know everything.

So it's up to me, 100%. If I want this to work, I'm going to have to figure out a way to get my emotional needs met by brute force. Or design a web app to get his attention!

[VeryFoggy]

Voicelessagaony2 - I get what your therapist is saying but it is still an excellent tool and exercise for you to do for yourself.  You need to let that frustration out!  Bottling it up does no good! Also you if you can work through enough on your own, you can give hism the good parts.  Make a second letter that only has that last part - All that you are thankful for and grateful for about him.

As for the trash scenario, he may just want appreciation. It's a basic male need and it is at the top of their list along with trust. So here's another way to respond to his "Is it full?" question.

"Yes, it is, and I just want you to know I so much appreciate you taking care of the trash.  I hate doing it, and it means a lot to me that you take care of that for us."

And then try asking him to do other things too.  Open a jar for you, or zip your dress, or carry the groceries, just simple little things and just keep appreciating, keep thanking.  It can't hurt and it might help!

[schrödinger's cat]

I've been in a similar situation - not exactly the same, but my husband was very defensive, and he didn't listen, and he was resistant to doing some things that needed to be done. The books I read said to use positive reinforcement and to NEVER pressure a man into doing anything. So I did that.

The thing is, my experiences with that weren't good. Maybe the method works for some people. I'm not one of them. So I'm going to describe my situation, so you can see if that applies to you too or if it's just me. Here goes.

What happened was, my husband took my praise for granted. He wasn't weeping tears of joy and then changing his wicked ways within the next week or so. There was a bit of improvement. But the basic situation stayed the same. And he didn't reciprocate. At that time, I did a LOT for the family. I made sacrifices. I ended up feeling like I was some kind of maid doing menial work, while Mr High-and-Mighty MUST be kow-towed to if he so much as buttered his own bread. I got so tired of it. I ceased being authentic. It was all play-acting. I didn't WANT to praise him. I wanted to know why we'd been equals before we married, why we weren't equals now. It felt so lop-sided. So hierarchical. So wrong.

As for the method itself - I'm very open to the possibility that it does work. It's good to spot the positive things people do for us, and to let them know that we appreciate it. But the way it played out in my particular situation... it wasn't good.

Eventually, I got so very sick and tired of it all. Not just the lopsided praising thing - there were quite a few other things going on too. The praising thing was just the tip of a huge iceberg. I had a kid at the time, so it wasn't a question anymore of "simply just" walking out. It was hard. But eventually, it got to the point where I saw that he was acting in ways that were just unacceptable. I told him so, and I told him that I was going to get a divorce if he persisted in being such an utter jerk. To my surprise, he changed. It worked. It's probably like Marycontrary said - if you set good and sensible boundaries, "the cream rises to the top" - good people will respond in good ways. And my husband, bless him, isn't the most subtle guy you'll meet. He really needs to hear things clearly and unequivocally (no hint-hint nudge-nudge, no beating about the bush).

At the end of the day, what this shows might be simply that the praise method doesn't replace setting good boundaries and standing up for yourself. It complements those things. But if you're like I was then, with feeble boundaries and a lifetime of thinking that you have to stand back and take care of others before you take the eensiest bit of care for yourself, that method might make your existing problems worse. This might be especially true in case your husband has narcissistic tendencies.

[marycontrary]

Let me ask you something from your perspective. Do you think you are prepared to be in a relationship at this moment.

I am asking because at 43, and having been in long term relationships mostest of most of my adult life, I feel like a cake that isn`t fully cooked at this moment for me. I mean, I am REALLY enjoying having a lot of quiet time. Don`t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with my sex drive or my want to be intimate. I am, I think, developmentally a young adult. And young adults, for the most part don`t need to be settling down. I want my next one to be fully right and healthy. I dont want to choke down feeling disrespected or having to play mommy to a child man who brushes off responsibility in passive aggressive ways.

What do you think.

[Kizzie]

I think VeryFoggy's suggestion of showing your partner appreciation is a good one, but only if you actually feel that way. Otherwise, you will probably end up feeling like you're acting and won't get the validation and sense of connection you're looking for. Like Cat I had trouble getting through to my H early on until I made it clear that he needed to really listen to me.  He loves me and so he did.  Nowdays I tell him often what I appreciate about him and he  me, but we truly feel that way so it's effortless.

Sometimes in the past I would have to say things like "You're not hearing me" and then he would slow down and pay attention.  Part of that was that he does communicate differently as VF suggests (so I had to learn how to talk in language he could relate more to), and part of it was that I had difficulty explaining how I felt about so many things because I was basically invisible in my FOO. 

I remember feeling so frustrated much like you are obviously feeling but I inside I had this burning desire to finally be heard and at some point I realized that I deserved to be heard.  If you are frustrated there's a good reason, listen to that     It may be that your BF chooses not to hear you in which case you may want to move on and find someone who does.

[voicelessagony2]

"Yes, it is, and I just want you to know I so much appreciate you taking care of the trash.  I hate doing it, and it means a lot to me that you take care of that for us."

Maybe that would have worked. I always, always say "thank you" after he does anything, but maybe the "thank you" has begun to sound too automated, and being more expressive about it might make a difference. Just for context, though, the negative type of response I described here is VERY unusual for me. I'm just at the end of my very very long rope. I'm extremely tolerant of all but the worst abuse, and it takes a lot of consistently bad behavior over a very long period of time for me to react in any way. My FOO - my mother was exactly the same. I remember years going by on autopilot, routine work/school/etc., and then one day I heard her screaming at the top of her lungs at my step-father in the garage, and heard a loud BANG... I thought she had shot him! Turns out she had a freaking sledge hammer and bashed his work bench! 

And then try asking him to do other things too.  Open a jar for you, or zip your dress, or carry the groceries, just simple little things and just keep appreciating, keep thanking.  It can't hurt and it might help!

This is a fresh idea. I'll try it!

cat, thank you for sharing this... would you consider your earlier, less-enlightened behavior as co-dependent? Another recent eye-opener for me was understanding that I fit the criteria for co-dependent nearly 100%. (I used to mistakenly think that meant you always had alcoholic or drug addict partners. Now I see why that is common, but the reasons are entirely separate.) I can live indefinitely (almost) on crumbs of affection, and I never ever ask for anything. Asking for things feels like begging for change, and the risk of rejection is almost unbearable.

I'm going to keep trying to find the right way to communicate with him. It's going to take me reaching a minimum level of self-respect and determination to get my needs met. It will happen soon. I can see myself making progress. I've already left him once, and moved back when I realized that I had not even tried different ways of communicating.

I mean, if Jane Goodall could figure out how to communicate with apes, who am I to declare this situation beyond hope???

Let me ask you something from your perspective. Do you think you are prepared to be in a relationship at this moment.

No, I am absolutely not, and I knew that when I signed up on "plenty of fish dot com" (dating website) in 2011. I knew that when I moved in with him a month after our first date.

However, at the time, I would have preferred death, in a very literal sense, to being alone one more day. I could not, would not be alone.

I know that makes it sound like I probably grabbed the first fish to bite, but I actually screened quite a few candidates, and when I met R, I knew within 10 minutes that he was the one for me. I found him attractive, (still do!) and he loves animals, has a kind heart, and immediately offered to help me with a small "loan" ($150) after our first date, which lasted all afternoon. The date, not the loan. Ha! He said I could pay him whenever I got back on my feet, and insisted he was not attaching any strings. He was sincere. (No man has EVER, in my entire life, given or even loaned me a single dollar. Several have taken everything I own.)

Given my sense of urgency, and my history, I am actually amazed that I did not find myself with yet another predator/narcissist, and I'm surprised how well things have worked out in the following years. The problems we are having now are actually, I think, within the range of "normal" problems, given my CPTSD and whatever his issues are - I suspect a touch of aspberger's maybe? At any rate, this is still the best relationship I have experienced so far.

I dont want to choke down feeling disrespected or having to play mommy to a child man who brushes off responsibility in passive aggressive ways.

What do you think.

Yeah, you nailed it. I guess I'm still optimistic that I can grow some self-respect in time to save this relationship.

I think VeryFoggy's suggestion of showing your partner appreciation is a good one, but only if you actually feel that way.

I do appreciate him. I tend to hang onto the negative and focus on it, and doing that exercise of writing all those different types of feelings made me realize that. It was really easy to fill up a page of anger and another page of hurt feelings, but when I got to the appreciate and understand pages, I had to stop and really think. But, after thinking about it, some sincere feelings did come up. They were there, but they rarely ever get my attention.

Sometimes in the past I would have to say things like "You're not hearing me" and then he would slow down and pay attention.  Part of that was that he does communicate differently as VF suggests (so I had to learn how to talk in language he could relate more to), and part of it was that I had difficulty explaining how I felt about so many things because I was basically invisible in my FOO. 

I am convinced that there is a way that I have just not discovered yet, that will get him to see what is happening. I was also invisible in my FOO, and in every relationship after that, so my struggle to overcome voicelessness is just beginning. What feels to me like screaming, might sound like a little mouse squeaking to him.

Right now, it seems to me like he is systematically shutting down every attempt I make to open up conversation with him.

Yesterday or the day before, I had one of those "lightbulb" moments about myself, and I was happy to share something positive with him. I told him that I caught one of those "ANTs" - automatic negative thoughts - and recognized it for what it was, for the first time! His response: "I TOLD YOU that a long time ago! I told you that you hang onto negative thoughts, but you never listen to me! That is so frustrating to me, why don't you ever listen to me?" Well, that definitely shut me up, and made me determined to never open up to him again. That hurts. And I don't know how to show him or explain to him what he did there. His favorite phrase is "I already told you that." Nearly every time I open my mouth with an idea, a question, a topic of discussion. I can't even tell him that the oven isn't working right - he won't take my word for it. He will ask me if I'm using it right, etc., and tell me it works fine for him, until the day it actually breaks and won't even heat up. In the meantime, I fry or slow-cook everything. Earlier today, I wanted to talk about something in a show we are watching, so he sighs loudly, pauses the show, and lets me babble. Then, a condescending reply while simultaneously un-pausing the show. But now, he is talking and laughing with me at the same show.

I remember feeling so frustrated much like you are obviously feeling but I inside I had this burning desire to finally be heard and at some point I realized that I deserved to be heard.  If you are frustrated there's a good reason, listen to that     It may be that your BF chooses not to hear you in which case you may want to move on and find someone who does.

I am getting closer every day to that burning desire you describe. There will come a time when I will really *get it*, that I deserve to be heard, and then I will be able to tell if he is really in this for the right reasons, and willing to work with me, and if not, then I can move on with confidence that I tried everything.

[schrödinger's cat]

I mean, if Jane Goodall could figure out how to communicate with apes, who am I to declare this situation beyond hope???

That made me laugh out loud. You've got such a good sense of humour.    I can see where you're coming from. And I think I'd probably come to much the same conclusions you do. It seems like a very complex situation. I wish you all the best with this, and I hope that you'll soon be able to resolve this.

Oh yes, and you're absolutely right about the codependency. That was startling to find out - that somehow, my FOO and/or my peers had taught me to be that way. Bleargh.

[voicelessagony2]

This is an exact copy & paste from my journal entry earlier today, but only the part that has to do with my relationship. It's long, it's a rant, and I'm sorry it is quite a truckload of complaints. Anyway, here goes:

I'm sick of trying to get what I want from R. and maybe it's not deliberate, but it is predictable and systematic, the way he shuts down every single attempt at any communication I initiate. Every time I share some progress I have made with my most difficult inner struggles, he responds by saying, "I TOLD you that a long time ago!!! If you would just listen to me, you would already know that! I'M so frustrated that you won't listen! You never listen to me!" That was his response when I told him that I was excited because I caught a ANT - automatic negative thought - which really is a big deal to me, because they are SO automatic that they just blend in with the swirling fog of emotions and non-negative thoughts... it's like learning about a nearly invisible insect, and seeing one for the first time in the wild, and actually CATCHING it... but of course, it's one thing for me to find the words for such a vivid description now, when I have time to sit down, alone with my thoughts, and write, as opposed to responding in the moment, for me literally impossible because my brain has been hijacked by a full blown EF.

This is how he responds to every goddamn thing I say to him, no matter what topic, no matter how benign or even positive. He refutes, disputes, and disagrees with everything as a matter of foregone conclusion. If it's coming out of my mouth, it is presumed to be wrong. So, even if I try to tell him exactly that, (that he disagrees with everything) he disagrees with THAT, completely missing the irony, and I am declared to be "wrong." He will defend his own character to the death of this relationship, because I cannot ask him to change anything about himself, or the way he communicates with me.

I've tried writing down things I want to say to him in emails or printing them out, and he won't read them. Or, if he does, he won't respond, either in writing or verbally. When I ask him if he read it, he says "Why can't you just talk to me about it? I don't have time/I'm too tired/etc. to read stuff like that."
I'm sick of trying to fix myself all day, every day, with no emotional support from him. And it would seem that I'm trying to fix this relationship by myself, too.

I had a migraine that lasted for 3 full days that started last Friday. I was out of medicine. I woke up Friday with the migraine (about a level 3 on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the worst), but didn't say anything until around mid-day Saturday, when I just couldn't take it any more, and it had increased to about a level 5. I searched through my papers until I found the rx I got a couple weeks ago, and I had to ask him for money to get it filled. He said, "Are you serious? I just spent $100 ordering some meds (from overseas), it will be here in a few weeks! Are you sure you really need this right now? You don't seem to be in pain, you've been doing stuff around the house, you don't act like you are in pain???" Eventually he gave in and I got my meds. But another nail in the coffin.

He also took back the credit card he had given me, which I was using for gas and food. I was being as responsible as I knew how to be, only buying food to cook dinners with, not using a lot of gas - not difficult for me, as I would rather not leave the house anyway - but he still thought I was spending too much, and took it away. Surprisingly, I wasn't even upset at the moment, and we had a calm discussion, but I'm really disappointed with the outcome. Here's why: When he gave me the card, he never gave me any limit or guideline, like a dollar amount per week or whatever to shoot for, so I just shopped for food as I always have. After we talked, I had to admit, that I had never bothered to compare prices at different grocery stores. (I know, basic stuff, but I've never done this... money has always been overwhelming and confusing to me.) HOWEVER, I'm aware enough to know that with no income, I cannot keep buying non-essentials like alcohol, snacks, sodas, (I even gave up my Monster addiction!) so that stuff was already off the table. All I needed (but it did not occur to me to ask for) was for him to give me a number, like, if he had said at the beginning "Keep it around $100 a week" I would have done whatever it took to stay in that limit. So he made this decision in his own mind, and told me that he would give me $100 in cash, plus $30 for gas or whatever. I told him fine, whatever, but all you had to do was tell me. His response was to tell me that he shouldn't have to tell me, that I should have been able to "figure it out" or whatever, what the limit was.

So that, to me is unacceptable. Not the fact that he took his credit card away, but the fact that I was supposed to GUESS what my spending limit was. And even now, after we talked, he is unwilling to give me the card WITH the agreed-upon guidelines.

Sometimes I think about the men you see on TV and movies that just assume that the women they marry or live with are going to cost them lots of money, and those women go shopping for clothes, buy stuff for their kids, and the men just work harder to earn more money for their family. Is that even real? How is it that I have never once experienced anything anywhere close to that?

Oh yeah, and he insists that my money issues have NOTHING whatsoever to do with having CPTSD, so he is pre-emptively squashing any dialogue about that, while simultaneously insisting that this should be easy to fix. 

[marycontrary]

Too me, it sounds invalidating as *, so sorry you are going thru this....

[VeryFoggy]

Voicelessagony2 - I hear you, I hear you loud and clear. And I KNOW what you are going through, I truly do, and I am not promising anything is absolutely 100% positively going to work, only it's worth a try If and only IF, you love the guy and would like it to work.

It is horribly invalidating what he is doing, and combined with your inability to stick up for yourself, in that you were taught to believe that you deserved nothing at all, it is an extremely difficult situation to overcome and deal with.  As you say, you are trying to fix yourself and the relationship single handedly and simultaneously.  I KNOW what that feels like.

But here are some tips.  I still believe with the right guy it can happen and it can be done, because I've just spent the last year doing it.  Now we did have to break up, but once we were broken up, either he HAD to read my emails and my letters, or he wasn't going to communicate with me at all.  Because writing is the only way I felt safe talking and saying what I feel.  I am STILL this way, and if it is a Big Deal, then he STILL gets an email even now, almost a year later.  Period.  But he's been trained now since last April.  So he accepts it now. He reads it then we discuss it.

When R. says, "I TOLD you that already, Sheesh!"  He is acting as a Martian, really, he wants to be recognized for what he "knew" all along and thanked.  But that is NOT what YOU need. So somewhere inside of you, you are going to have to find the intestinal fortitude to hold your hand up palm out and say "Stop!" This important to me!  I do not want or need you to fix it.  I have to fix it myself.  But today I fixed something myself, and I want you to celebrate with me and be happy with me.  I just need you to listen to me."  And see if he will.  If he won't even listen then you will have your answer.  You will probably never be happy.  But if he will listen and be happy for you then it is possible.  I talked about this above, but I may not have been very clear.  And you may have to do this multiple times to get him to stop and finally learn what you need. But if he will stop each time you say "STOP!" and just listen then there is a chance.

And to be fair my guy will still do this on occasion.  BUT, now I know he is coming from a good place in his heart, not a controlling place.  Because I finally trust him to have my best interest at heart.  I can finally tell the demons from the angels.  And I laugh now!  I laugh and say "Yes, but I had to do it, and that is quite different from you knowing it. You knowing it doesn't help me at all!"  And we laugh together! So it is a joke now, not painful and angry. He recognizes I am a separate person from him, and he cannot make me see or understand anything.  I have to do it for myself and it is best for BOTH of us if he just celebrates it with me when I do it.

Now to be fair it sounds like your man needs a lot of retraining. And it's going to take guts to do it, but what he is doing is normal male behavior.  So if you don't retrain him, but you want to be with a guy, then you will probably have to retrain the next one too. So if it is worth saving, it is worth a try. You stop him from his gloating, and tell him what you need from him.  If you trust him and know him to not be PD then he should be able to do that for you. But if he can't, then you have your answer.

Okay about the meds, if money is tight and you really did act like everything was fine, then it is really not fair to wait until you are dying and say "I have been dying" and then not have him wonder if you cannot wait.  I'm sorry but YOU have to take responsibility for your pain, and if YOU feel bad, then don't pretend you feel great.  Who is that going to hurt if you pretend?  Obviously you.  Because now you are in REAL pain, and he doubts you, and you don't have the resources to even fight about it anymore.  So ignoring yourself and pretending does NOT help.  Hardest thing in the world for us to learn is to speak up for ourselves.  But if we do, then sometimes miracles happen. Again, if he knows starting Friday you feel bad, and then if you still feel bad on Saturday, would he have been more receptive or less receptive? But only you know him and if it would not have mattered, then again you have your answer.  This one cannot be saved. But you do have to play fair and give him a fighting chance.

And the credit card... How demoralizing and humiliating, and way to just make you feel about an inch tall.  This is the one that has me a bit worried about his motives.  Again you are the only one who knows.  Does he try to control you?  Or is he (in his mind) just being logical? But take comfort in the fact that money is one of the main reasons "normal" people break up too. So what he said was not fair.  You are NOT a mind reader. But that is a PD trait.  So that is why I am unsure.  Only you can KNOW.  I would wait for him to calm down and say, "Look, I am sorry about going over budget, but I want you to know that If I had had  a budget, I would have stuck to it. It is important to me that you see and understand that I did not know what the budget was.  Now that I do know then I will stick with it. And I appreciate you setting that out in black and white. Now I know, and I am glad to know. But I would like you to recognize that I am not a spendthrift and I do not go crazy with your credit card or money.  It would make me feel good if you would agree that I do try. I would really appreciate it if you would give me some credit.  And see what he says.

I wish you the very best and it is SO hard, and you do have to do twice the work, just like I do, and all of us do because of our issues.  But when we find one worth keeping, it is worth the effort.  Because they can bring us so much joy too. I hope your R. does bring you some joy and is worth the effort, but if he does not then you still have some new tools!

[schrödinger's cat]

Voice - I'm so sorry to hear what you're going through. My FOO has a way of saying invalidating things too, combined with smirks and pointed looks. I'm now LC with them, because I kept trying to fix it but I couldn't. It was like running in a hamster wheel. Like jumping through hoops, and every time I tried, the hoop was just held higher. No more. I'm through with this.

So if VeryFoggy is right and there IS a way of fixing this, then that's good. But I'm thinking that, at the end of the day, there just HAS to be a limit. Knowing that has made a big difference to me. I mean this: knowing that I have a right to set this limit in the first place - to say to myself: "I'm going to keep trying until...", and then either set a time limit or a limit to the jerkishness I'm going to accept. And then when things get too bad, I've got the right to walk away. If this is a relationship I can NOT get without the smirks and the hints and the invalidations, then no thanks, I'm walking away. Even just knowing this does wonders for my inner strength.

Which in turn makes it easier to work on relationships. If I feel stuck, that depletes me of energy.

Not at all sure what you had best do in your situation, though. It looks like he's treating you as a child, but maybe I'm mistaken. I just remembered what you said about your struggles to find your voice and be heard. And what he's doing - it looks like it makes all that worse, so much worse. So I'm now a bit angry at your boyfriend. It's possible that he's a good man, but his behaviour right now is that of a self-righteous jerk. It's patronizing and rude. He's stonewalling you all the time, dodging out of honest attempts to communicate, and dismissing your concerns and opinions out of hand. Having to live in close quarters with someone like that is a constant source of emotional injuries. (At least it was for me.) Whatever you end up doing: I wish you all the best, and I hope things will improve very soon. 

[marycontrary]

I second what VF and SC have said. I am a hard *, I know, but I refuse to take disrespect like that for one second. I have seen it, been through it, and have had to end toxic relationships because of it. Realize when you start setting humane boundaries, he will raise *. The relationship may fail. But let me tell you, without boundaries, this will escalate into further damaging abuse.

Big hugs..

[voicelessagony2]

But here are some tips.  I still believe with the right guy it can happen and it can be done, because I've just spent the last year doing it.  Now we did have to break up, but once we were broken up, either he HAD to read my emails and my letters, or he wasn't going to communicate with me at all.  Because writing is the only way I felt safe talking and saying what I feel.  I am STILL this way, and if it is a Big Deal, then he STILL gets an email even now, almost a year later.  Period.  But he's been trained now since last April.  So he accepts it now. He reads it then we discuss it.

I'm going to try this, again. Writing things down & make him read it, and make him TALK about it, don't allow him to blow it off with "yeah, I read it, so what."

When R. says, "I TOLD you that already, Sheesh!"  He is acting as a Martian, really, he wants to be recognized for what he "knew" all along and thanked.  But that is NOT what YOU need. So somewhere inside of you, you are going to have to find the intestinal fortitude to hold your hand up palm out and say "Stop!" This important to me!  I do not want or need you to fix it.  I have to fix it myself.  But today I fixed something myself, and I want you to celebrate with me and be happy with me.  I just need you to listen to me."  And see if he will.  If he won't even listen then you will have your answer.  You will probably never be happy.  But if he will listen and be happy for you then it is possible.  I talked about this above, but I may not have been very clear.  And you may have to do this multiple times to get him to stop and finally learn what you need. But if he will stop each time you say "STOP!" and just listen then there is a chance.

The last time I tried this, it was a little while ago, but I asked him to try and refrain from the "I told you already" as this has been the cause of at least one major blowup with me even slamming doors... very uncharacteristic of me, that only happens once in a blue moon. I don't remember what his response was, but it's obvious that he either did not hear me, because he wasn't really listening, which is frequently the case, or he heard me and just continues to ignore my request.

Either way, I am going to have to ask again, and try to make him understand why - or try to understand why he thinks that reminding me of his own right-ness is going to help me, or us, or the situation.

... now I know he is coming from a good place in his heart, not a controlling place.  Because I finally trust him to have my best interest at heart.  I can finally tell the demons from the angels.  And I laugh now!  I laugh and say "Yes, but I had to do it, and that is quite different from you knowing it. You knowing it doesn't help me at all!"  And we laugh together! So it is a joke now, not painful and angry. He recognizes I am a separate person from him, and he cannot make me see or understand anything.  I have to do it for myself and it is best for BOTH of us if he just celebrates it with me when I do it.

VF, I think this may be possible... I really want to believe he is capable of "getting it" on this level. Just two days ago, we had a good breakthrough on a different topic, and I realized that I was interpreting what he was saying as reprimanding in nature, but he made it very clear that was not his intention at all, and I cried & we hugged, and maybe he got a glimpse of how things can get so distorted for me... my communication framework is damaged, and it takes profound insight for me to identify the things I have been misinterpreting my entire life.

Now to be fair it sounds like your man needs a lot of retraining. And it's going to take guts to do it, but what he is doing is normal male behavior.  So if you don't retrain him, but you want to be with a guy, then you will probably have to retrain the next one too. So if it is worth saving, it is worth a try. You stop him from his gloating, and tell him what you need from him.  If you trust him and know him to not be PD then he should be able to do that for you. But if he can't, then you have your answer.

Honestly, I am going to do whatever it takes to make this one work. He might even have some PD like aspbergers or even a little narc, (is there such a thing as a little bit narc?) but I don't think he is beyond hope at all.

Okay about the meds, if money is tight and you really did act like everything was fine, then it is really not fair to wait until you are dying and say "I have been dying" and then not have him wonder if you cannot wait.  I'm sorry but YOU have to take responsibility for your pain, and if YOU feel bad, then don't pretend you feel great.  Who is that going to hurt if you pretend?  Obviously you.  Because now you are in REAL pain, and he doubts you, and you don't have the resources to even fight about it anymore.  So ignoring yourself and pretending does NOT help.  Hardest thing in the world for us to learn is to speak up for ourselves.  But if we do, then sometimes miracles happen. Again, if he knows starting Friday you feel bad, and then if you still feel bad on Saturday, would he have been more receptive or less receptive? But only you know him and if it would not have mattered, then again you have your answer.  This one cannot be saved. But you do have to play fair and give him a fighting chance.

I hear you, and I accept the fact that it's not fair for me to withhold information & expect him to understand. It's just really, really hard to explain even to you, a friendly voice in a safe place, how frustrating it is to have so much experience with migraines, knowing they last for days without treatment, and how many times in my life I have had to just grit my teeth and get through it on sheer willpower. I stopped expecting people to understand many years ago. Additionally, in this case, the pain started out very low, maybe a 2 on a scale of 1 to 10, so I *hoped* it was just a normal headache and took advil and decongestant, a combo that sometimes works on very mild headaches. So, 36 hours later, the pain slowly crept up to about a 5, and I knew I was doomed, and that's when I told him.

And the credit card... How demoralizing and humiliating, and way to just make you feel about an inch tall.  This is the one that has me a bit worried about his motives.  Again you are the only one who knows.  Does he try to control you? 

He goes out of his way to demonstrate the opposite of controlling, to the point it gets on my nerves sometimes. Like discussing what to have for dinner, when I really truly DO NOT CARE, but he will not just make the decision without a great deal of pushing from me! He seems to be afraid to make decisions for fear I will resent them, but I don't understand why, as that has never been a problem for us. He DOES however, have a problem with some basic respect. He interrupts me constantly when I'm talking, and I can tell when he wants to interrupt, that he is not even listening to me any more. He ACTUALLY told me "shhh" the other day, because I was not letting him interrupt me like he is accustomed to! I honestly have no idea how to respond to that. On the rare occasion I speak to his mother (I love her!) about stuff like that, she just says "He is exactly like his father." They are divorced, and his father is middle eastern. I hate stereotyping, but there are times like this when I literally think to myself, my god, he IS just like the stereotypical middle eastern male. FWIW, he - my boyfriend - is not muslim, was not raised that way at all. We are both non-religious.

Or is he (in his mind) just being logical? But take comfort in the fact that money is one of the main reasons "normal" people break up too. So what he said was not fair.  You are NOT a mind reader. But that is a PD trait.  So that is why I am unsure.  Only you can KNOW.  I would wait for him to calm down and say, "Look, I am sorry about going over budget, but I want you to know that If I had had  a budget, I would have stuck to it. It is important to me that you see and understand that I did not know what the budget was.  Now that I do know then I will stick with it. And I appreciate you setting that out in black and white. Now I know, and I am glad to know. But I would like you to recognize that I am not a spendthrift and I do not go crazy with your credit card or money.  It would make me feel good if you would agree that I do try. I would really appreciate it if you would give me some credit.  And see what he says.

He is totally like Dr. Spock from Star Trek, very logical, loves science, etc. I think this might resolve itself just like you said... maybe he realized he was being unreasonable, or maybe he is just too lazy to go to the ATM every week to pull out cash for me, but has given me his card again, so we will see... plus, today I made a spreadsheet with prices at different stores, and I'm going to use it to do some comparison to see which store comes out as the best for the types of things we buy the most. That should make him happy! Plus it will be good for me. I honestly have never compared prices, EVER in my life. I just go to the nearest grocery store & be done with it. Ask me what I paid for a pound of butter, I have no idea. It could be $2, or $12, I don't pay any attention. That's partly how I got to be in the financial mess I'm in now, I guess.

I wish you the very best and it is SO hard, and you do have to do twice the work, just like I do, and all of us do because of our issues.  But when we find one worth keeping, it is worth the effort.  Because they can bring us so much joy too. I hope your R. does bring you some joy and is worth the effort, but if he does not then you still have some new tools!

Thank you VF! Sorry it took me so long to reply to this... lots of thinking to do. Thank you for listening.