Starting EMDR

[sanmagic7]

hey, libby, very glad it went well for you and that you feel hopeful about it.

also very glad your t believed and validated your experience when you were so young.  so far so good.

i know that feeling of being nervous before a session.   i've always been anxious about what i might find out. 

sorry about the pain.  our bodies absorb so much of the trauma, especially the emotions around it that we can't/don't easily express.  it sounds to me that some of what's been internalized for you got stirred up, and you're feeling it in a real way.  i hope it goes away soon.  like eyessoblue mentioned, pain can also be relieved thru emdr if it continues.  there may be a message in it that you're just not aware of at the moment.

sounds like you're doing a great job overall.  yay for you, and glad you've got a good t.  double yay.  big hug.

[Libby183]

Thank you all for your interest and support.

This has been such an interesting start to EMDR.  Thank you all for reassuring me that feeling pain is a normal response after emotions have been stirred up. I will certainly tell my therapist what I have been experiencing,  especially as four days later I am still in a lot of pain.

However,  despite the pain, I actually feel very positive in my mind.  I have had many episodes of pain of this type,  over many years.  Usually it leads into a spiral of depression,  where I feel I will never be free of it again.   But this time,  I find myself just "going with it", resting and not expecting so much of myself and beating myself up about what I should be doing and can't actually do. Self-care, at last.

Whilst being less active,  I have also gone back to reading around NPD,  and narcissistic abuse. Even though I have not read anything particularly new to me, I think I am accepting more genuinely that this is what happened to me. Perhaps now I am feeling it deeply,  rather than just knowing it intellectually.  Part of getting in touch with my inner child, maybe.  I think the validation from both therapy and your responses together have really helped me here.

My daughter is visiting for the weekend so I hope I can manage a short shopping trip to help her choose an outfit for the party she is going to this evening.  I love our shopping trips,  but it is always tinged with sadness that I could never, ever have this sort of relationship with my own mother. I am realising and accepting more and more how deeply damaged and severely damaging she truly was.

Thank you again for your support,  it is very much appreciated.

Libby.

[Hope67]

However,  despite the pain, I actually feel very positive in my mind.  I have had many episodes of pain of this type,  over many years.  Usually it leads into a spiral of depression,  where I feel I will never be free of it again.   But this time,  I find myself just "going with it", resting and not expecting so much of myself and beating myself up about what I should be doing and can't actually do. Self-care, at last.

Hi Libby,
It's great to hear that you've had a positive start with the treatment, and that you're doing "self-care" too - and I hope that the pain will be bearable, and that you'll enjoy your shopping trip with your daughter.  Really nice that you can have a different relationship with her, to the one you had to endure with your NM.

I just wanted to give you a gentle hug  and thank you for your support in the forum - your replies have been helpful to me, and I have read many of your posts and your replies, as I relate to the things you say.

Hope the next session goes well for you. 

Hope 

[Libby183]

Hi everyone.

I felt quite overwhelmed this week,  after my first real treatment session.  But, overwhelmed in a positive way. 

Because of the pain I was in, the therapist said we should get on with the treatment,  so we dealt with the situation with my mother, when I was about three and a half.  It was an odd experience, but I really went with it. The physical pain has lessened a bit,  I have felt really tired, but actually,  calm and at peace, almost.  Obviously,  I still think about my mother and my feelings about her haven't changed, but somehow,  I feel more in control and more accepting of them. This session only dealt with one memory,  that was more a memory from mothers story of it, so I'm really hopeful of even more positive results from reprocessing later memories.

The dream aspect has been very interesting.  Two nights after this treatment,  my mother was in a dream, and we actually laughed together.  Never happened in real life, but this made the dream feel very significant.  Mother has featured less as a scary figure in my dreams since then, but father has featured heavily a couple of times. I think that this may be telling me where to focus  the process at some point.

Hope, San and Eyesofblue, thank you for your interest and support.  I know how much you are all going through at the moment,  and I just want to wish you all the best in everything you are dealing with. 

Thank you again,

Libby

[Hope67]

Hi Libby,
I'm pleased to read that you have coped with your first real treatment session of EMDR, and it's good to hear you're feeling some 'calm' and almost 'at peace' too - also good that the physical pain has lessened a bit. 

Interesting to hear about the change in your dream content too.

Thanks for your kind and supportive words as well - and I would also thank 'you' for 'your' interest and support - it means a lot.  I am so glad to be on this journey of positive change alongside all of you.

Libby - I hope that the weekend is a good one for you, and that the next session you have will go well - and sending you a hug 

Hope 

[sanmagic7]

libby, it sounds like your brain is processing well, and like you're beginning to feel some empowerment in regards to your mother.  i think that's a good sign.  also glad the pain is lessening.

being tired is completely normal as your brain is working really hard to reprocess memories, images, thoughts, and feelings so as not to be completely overwhelming anymore, but rather more manageable.  self care, patience, and rest are important.  if possible, eat what's healthiest for your brain, but don't beat yourself up if you reach for the junk food.  this is stressful right now.

i'm glad you're finding the calming and peaceful parts showing up.  good sign.  it's seeming like this is a good fit for you so far.  don't ever forget, tho, that if you feel it begins to go too fast, you can slow it down.  this is your process, first and foremost.

well done - nice work, libby.  warm, loving hug to you my dear.

[Libby183]

Hi to everyone.  I have been keeping up with all of your posts and hoping that you are all OK,  but have felt a bit shell-shocked after my last therapy session a week ago.

Looking back, it seemed different from the start.  The T questioned why I still had some back pain and said it must be physical.  Then she asked me why I am still scoring myself as so anxious.  Finally,  she said that EMDR would not work while I was still so angry with my parents.  Her rationale was that an angry adult could not soothe a hurt and angry inner child.

Consequently, my task was to go away and forgive my parents.

What take do people have on this.

I know I am angry with my parents and am angry at things that remind me of them. My T told me a long story about how she had forgiven her neighbours after a boundary dispute.   Good for her, but it just reminded me of my nm telling me how perfect she is and how imperfect I am.

Since then,  I have read a lot on forgiveness.  I realise I have forgiven a lot of people a lot of things. I am never outwardly angry.  Also, I have forgiven my parents in that I understand why they behaved like they did; I have no desire to exact any revenge on them and wish them no ill will any more. I have let them go because I know I can expect nothing from them and it is kinder for all of us to be no contact. 

Unfortunately, they are still in my head, and if I think of the past,  I can't seem to help being angry.  I hoped that the therapy would help with this step. 

I have questioned whether EMDR is appropriate for narcissistic abuse treatment.  After all, the T seems to deal with very vivid images of abuse. I have some memories of being beaten,  but the damage done to me was far more subtle, far more emotional,  far more of problem with the relationship between my mother and I,  where she believed we were one person,  other than she was good and I was bad.

I just don't know if this forgiveness and letting go of anger is the next step.  I want to do this but it is a real struggle because virtually every thought I ever have is linked directly to my mother. Even the most mundane of things is influenced by her.  It's weird and I want it to stop.  I had hoped this treatment would help but,  at the moment,  I feel like I have been rejected again.

The therapist said there was no right or wrong way to do EMDR but it seems I am doing it wrong. The push-pull, double bind trauma of my relationship with my mother has reared its ugly head again.

I could really do with in-sights, advice, opinions,  anything,  because I am not sure how to move on at the moment.

Thank you for listening,

Hugs,

Libby.

[Hope67]

Hi Libby,
I actually feel quite shocked at your T's rationale that "an angry adult could not soothe a hurt and angry inner child" - and that she then gave you a task to go away and forgive your parents.  Honestly, I think your T doesn't understand complex PTSD, to have made such a suggestion.    to you Libby. 

Also, to say that your back pain "must be physical" - that strikes me as lacking understanding too - I can completely see why you'd be feeling shell-shocked, as I feel 'shell-shocked' just reading that.  Libby, I really feel for you. 

The fact she's then gone on to give an analogy of her own about a boundary dispute - wow.  What a comparison. Really... 

I hope that my reactions aren't triggering in themselves for you Libby, as I am wanting to be helpful in my reply to you - and I can see that you've asked questions about EMDR - which I would have thought would be an appropriate therapy - providing the therapist knows about complex PTSD and can help you and guide you appropriately.  I must say that I am wondering about your T's abilities.  Warning bells are ringing for me - regarding that.  But then, maybe I over-react - so I don't know.

I don't think I can add any other thoughts at the moment, but I do think that EMDR could be a good therapy with a sensible and appropriate T - and I just wonder if you have found someone who really isn't very good, or just doesn't understand.

to you Libby - I hope you'll be ok - and be kind to yourself. 

Actually, what I do think is that it would be incredibly difficult to try to 'forgive' someone if you've not even been able to work through feelings towards them - and why should you forgive something?  Who's to say that is the way things should be.  There aren't any 'rules' to this, it's such an individual thing. 

Sorry Libby, I feel angry in reading how your T has tried to minimise your issues - that's what I think.  I could be projecting my own things though, so please don't take too much account of what I've said, only take the bits that are helpful.   
Hope 

[Eyessoblue]

Hi Libby
This is an interesting thought on emdr, I've not been told about it not working if you are still feeling angry, I was lead to believe that any issues wether it be anger sadness etc could and would be processed. My anger levels are huge with my family and that's what we have been working through with emdr, I've never forgiven or would forgive but the emdr is helping me forget and moving it to somewhere in my brain where it's not affecting me anymore, I'll always have memories but not the intensity that goes with it. I too have a lot of physical pain which my therapist believes is all the built up stress and anger in my body, this too is being processed through emdr, I must admit this doesn't work as well for me as the visual stuff but for example the other day when I was doing emdr I was going through a memory of being hit on the head, with this I developed a really bad headache whilst doing the emdr, I told my therapist and she told me to work with that feeling which I did then I followed her fingers side to side and the headache disappeared.
I would have thought you could process your anger through emdr like I have been doing, this in turn has lead to me seeing my inner child for the first time ever and this is where I had a complete emotional breakdown yesterday, it suddenly hit me how unloved and unwanted etc I was and how angry that had made me, today I don't now feel angry at all, just very child like and vulnerable and can't stop crying, apparently I'm going through some kind of grieving for the childhood I never had, I can see this all makes sense to me.
I would question your therapist a little about what she's said to you, I personally don't think that's correct, obviously no expert and I know emdr doesn't work for everyone but what she's told you I'm sure won't stop the emdr process working. Let me know how you get on.

[sanmagic7]

i'm totally with hope on feeling shocked about what your t said to you.  i don't like it at all.  i also agree with eyessoblue that emdr, when done correctly by a t who has knowledge of complex trauma will work with any emotion, feeling - physical or otherwise - and thought that interferes with you having a happy, healthy life.

her example of the forgiveness of the neighbor does not compute, doesn't make sense, nor is it comparable in any way.  i've also worked with people with pain, and emdr can help with that as well, whether it's physical or emotional (altho, i'd guess that anyone with trauma in their background would probably have emotions stuck in their muscles and cells - i believe this to be true of me, and have released some thru massage at times). 

esb explained it well about reducing the impact of memories, etc. so they don't interfere anymore.  that's exactly what emdr is meant to do.  you don't necessarily forget, but it doesn't run your life anymore. 

personally, i think this t went off the rails somehow.  she's putting her own beliefs on you.  and, to my mind, just cuz you're angry with your parents doesn't mean you're angry with your inner child.  the compassionate part of adult you can do wonders for little you.  besides, i don't believe forgiveness is always the answer.  i haven't forgiven several people for what they did to me, but i've turned that part over to the powers that be to take care of 'forgiveness' as they see fit.  god, angels, higher power, whatever - forgiving some things is beyond me.

i'm mad and sorry you experienced this, libby.  it sounded like things were going well, but this just doesn't seem right to me on a lot of levels.  if you can talk to her about it, see if you can get some satisfaction from her, then fine.  if not, or if you just don't want to have any more to do with her, that's fine, too.  you don't have to stay with any t who makes you feel guilty, ashamed, less than, or wrong.

and, i will say it again - you cannot do therapy wrong, you cannot do emdr wrong.  it is not possible.  it's up to the therapist to make sure therapy is beneficial to you and for you and your life.  that's not to say that some clients are unwilling to work at their recovery - a t can't fix that, can't make them want to recover.  it's obvious to me that you do want to recover or you wouldn't be asking for feedback about this session.

grrrr!  best to you with this, libby.  whichever way you want to go with this t, i support you fully.  love and a big hug.  i'd be interested to hear how it goes, what you decide to do.  if you have any other questions, feel free to pm me whenever. 

[Libby183]

Thank you all so much for your support. I have so much self-doubt that I just went along whole-heartedly with what she said in the therapy session.  Afterwards, I started to question her take on things. My husband and daughter backed me up. What you have said, echoed their opinions, with a lot more knowledge and experience to back it up. Thank you.

Eyesofblue - your take on it seems so right.  I wanted the therapy to help me deal with my anger so that it doesn't rule my mind. I told the T on my first session with her that I had always felt my mother's treatment of me was wrong and that I had always felt angry with her. And after all, anger is a response to hurt.

San - I think you are right about things going off the rails. She didn't seem sure where to go next and this led to me revealing some thoughts I have. One was about how I dislike being around happy families,  especially those with young children.  I admitted that it is more than envy, it is much more visceral. She asked me "were you not a happy family when your children were young?"  I answered no and explained why as it is all linked to my relationship with my parents.  I also touched on my mother's take-over of my life with regards to intimacy and fertility. Also very relevant to my overall problems.

She didn't respond in any way, as far as I can recall. I think she did some more EMDR,  but she kept talking about me being three years old in the memory,  but I was about nine. I think this could have been my fault because the initial memory was in a park, which led me to remember a later, more upsetting memory,  which happened in the same park.

Her assertion that I cannot be helped unless I give up my anger came up after all this.

I have given it a lot of thought.  I do want to heal desperately.  I am so tired of the hate, which does spill over into a hate of society - a society that reveres parents and the family so much, that we just can't have a voice. But that said, I like most people I interact with,  am very tolerant and empathise with anybody who is suffering.  Recently,  my son was being bullied at work, and I still felt sorry for the bully, because I am sure he had been bullied in the past.  He was disciplined about it, but I told my son to always treat him well as we don't know his history.

I wonder if she decided after all this, that I am more borderline PD than suffering from trauma? I certainly don't think that she sees me as particularly traumatised,  just angry. Perhaps I am, symptoms overlap a lot.

Anyway,  I have decided to go to the next session in a few days time.  I go with no preconceived ideas about how it will go. But having your feedback and having thought and read around the subject may help me deal with whatever comes up.

Thank you again for all of your advice and support.

Hope - your replies to me are never triggering. Just caring and supportive and exactly what I need to hear!

Hugs to everyone.

Libby.

[Hope67]

  to you Libby, and hope that you are coping with the weekend - and that you are ok. 
Hope 

[Eyessoblue]

Hi Libby, I just wanted to ask you if your emdr there's properly trained and licensed to be an emdr therapist? I know there are a lot of people who claim to be but aren't, you can even look on YouTube and self administer it but this is a big no no as you need so much more in regards to therapy then just watching the lights going backwards and forwards.
As I said all emotions both physical and emotional can be processed through emdr, I know I have very tense muscles and stiffness which we have tried to process with emdr as she said it's built up trauma in my body, it hasn't worked great with this I think I probably need somatic/tre therapy which I think will help more- maybe worth you looking into as well. Hope your next session goes well, keep in touch.

[Blueberry]

I wonder if she decided after all this, that I am more borderline PD than suffering from trauma? I certainly don't think that she sees me as particularly traumatised,  just angry. Perhaps I am, symptoms overlap a lot.

This stands out for me.

You know you can be angry and traumatised. They are not mutually exclusive. I'm sure you know that but it sounds as if your T maybe doesn't.

Being angry doesn't mean we have BPD. IME some survivors of childhood trauma tend more to anger and some more to sadness/crying. One reaction isn't intrinsically 'better' than the other. For me, it was good, healing to get into a place where I could reach the sadness and start crying. Other people need help tapping their anger. I was maybe more like you? I needed an outlet for anger, for rage at the injustices of my childhood.

What do you think? Do you feel traumatised? I've been told before I wasn't traumatised, that I was narcisstic. Strange that I've been helped so much by trauma therapy in that case  (Nobody working with me now questions the trauma btw).

Also agree with Eyessoblue on checking that your T is properly trained and licensed as emdr T. Apparently in my country (not the UK), you can do a weekend course in the subject matter. That's not enough!!

I really hope that your next session goes better.  Please let us know how things develop.

[sanmagic7]

i hope it goes well, libby.  please share if you care to - i'm interested in what she has to say.  i'm glad everyone's opinion matched so you can leave your self-doubt behind.  i agree with blueberry that being angry doesn't necessarily mean bpd or that you were not traumatized.  if you have trauma symptoms interfering in your life, you've had trauma in your history.

blueberry, i was trained in emdr in the states.  it starts out with a weekend training, then a year of practice with supervision, then a second weekend training where some of the more complicated and difficult traumas are explored.  accreditation goes according to whether you finished only one or both levels of training.  either way, you already have to have your credentials as a therapist in place.

however, working with complex trauma takes a lot of experience that 25 yrs. ago when i went thru both levels of training, we weren't aware of.  dissociation needs extra training and experience.  this t may be accredited, but that doesn't mean she knows what she's doing with complex trauma.

so, yes, finding a t that is sensitive to trauma as well as being a personal fit may be somewhat of an experiment.   wishing you the best with your next session, libby, and hope you get satisfaction.   sending a hug full of hope and love.