Covert SA

[JuniperShadow]

I've tried searching the forum for other posters talking about Covert abuse but there just aren't many. Is anyone up for talking about Covert?

[sanmagic7]

***** TW *******

i've witnessed it with my ex and my daughters.  inappropriate things said, vibes that were felt, stuff like that.  when i confronted him with this, he angrily defended himself, boasted about how he'd fooled his female therapist by lying about himself, and generally believed that what he'd done was fine, no big deal.   i told my daughters to watch for it (they were adults by the time this all came out) and to get away from him if they ever felt that 'icky' feeling while in his presence.  i hate him for it.

the first time anything happened (inappropriate, leering sounds toward my d when she was 7, i called him on it, and brought it in to couples' therapy.  i didn't know at the time that the t was also a misogynist, always took the man's side (even attempted to blame me for his sex addiction), and basically waved his behavior away by simply saying 'that's not appropriate'.

knowing what i know now, that should have been explored much more fully and thoroughly in therapy - the addiction may have been addressed much earlier and this stuff might not have continued and escalated.  at the time, i believed what she told him in session would stop it, so i never pursued it any farther.  i was totally naive about this stuff at the time, trusted her completely.

i don't know really what else may have happened over the years.  but there was nothing concrete in what he did with them as far as i know.  words and feelings.  i guess that's covert.

[Dee]

I did a quick read so I could understand this and I had a lightbulb go off. 

First, I recognized my sister's relationship with her younger son instantly.  I always knew it was not normal, but I didn't have a name for it.  Now he is married and it isn't going well, they are talking divorce.  The biggest reason is there are three people in that marriage, my sister being the third.  He is 30 and I have even seen things like her make his plate and cut his meat for him.  She has told me that she feels extremely close to him and that he understands her.  He has self esteem issues and is just coming out of rehab for alcohol abuse.  He was never given the gift of independence and he feels like a failure.

The other thing I wondered is if overt and covert exists together?  From what I read I feel it can and probably usually does.

[JuniperShadow]

i've witnessed it with my ex and my daughters.  inappropriate things said, vibes that were felt, stuff like that. ...but there was nothing concrete in what he did with them as far as i know.  words and feelings.  i guess that's covert.

Yup that is definitely covert SA, sanmagic. Sending you and your daughters hope that they feel validated and supported. Long-term covert can be just as damaging as overt SA and is associated with the same mental and emotional outcomes, or so I read. 

I recognized my sister's relationship with her younger son instantly... He was never given the gift of independence and he feels like a failure.

Dee, yes, that is truly unfortunate. I am one of those who believes "life begins after no-contact" when it comes to parents who don't respect boundaries. I understand that must be a very difficult situation for you to navigate, with her being your sister and all. I hope your nephew is getting the support that he needs.

The other thing I wondered is if overt and covert exists together?  From what I read I feel it can and probably usually does.

That's where my thoughts are going today. It took a long time for me to realize that what I had experienced was covert SA, but now that I have, I'm starting to see where it may have crossed a line into overt SA. I know that doesn't make my pain more or less valid, but I'm wondering what else is bubbling to the surface. It's hard to feel valid about experiences that aren't... I don't know... obvious? I told my brother once about some of the things and he said, "If you cherry pick incidents like that you could make anyone sound creepy." It's been a while since then and now I know that he was wrong to say that. Boundaries were violated, physical and emotional. It doesn't have to resemble what he thinks SA looks like to be real.

But knowing and feeling are different, and I still struggle with this a lot. Thoughts like, "I shouldn't even post in this part of the forum because my things aren't real enough" go through my head. But the more I read the more it seems like a lot of folks in this forum feel similarly.

I guess I was wondering if anyone else here had experienced this and how they process it. I'd give examples but I'm worried they would be too detailed and, frankly, I think I'm afraid to say it out loud since the last time I was shut down so hard.

[Blueberry]

i've witnessed it with my ex and my daughters.  inappropriate things said, vibes that were felt, stuff like that

If this is covert, then there's some of that in my history too. Also looks if they are "just" covert. But there was also overt stuff. Done by a female, so not totally what people automatically think off. It's been discounted before too by therapists as not being 'bad enough' so I can relate with the 'not real enough' , JuniperShadow.

It's really quite enough for me and sounds that way for you. I've been triggered about the CSA for a good few days now (nothing to do with anything on here) and I would trigger myself further if I even began to think about what happened to me, far less wrote it down. btw CSA = Childhood SA not Covert SA

[JuniperShadow]

It's really quite enough for me and sounds that way for you.

I had no idea how much I needed to hear this until you said it.

[sanmagic7]

i'll agree - it's enough.  thanks for the validation, juniper.

actually, i have an incident with my mother that, while it might not have had sexual intent behind it, nonetheless, what she did felt very uncomfortable to me.  at the time i didn't say anything cuz what went thru my mind was 'this seems so important to her, and if i say something i'd hurt her feelings.'

once i told a friend about it, and she immediately labeled it sexual abuse for the mere fact that i didn't believe it was ok for me to speak up against it.   that has stayed with me for many years, and i see the validity in it.  also, being sexualized by my ex on the dance floor in public - again, felt very uncomfortable, but he seemed to be having such a good time, and the others watching were enjoying his antics as well, so i never said anything.

dang, this stuff is just popping out of me now.  other experiences in childhood, even, all without intent, but couldn't say anything, just went thru it, absorbed it, waited till it was over.  hmmm . . .   i believe that anything that makes us feel uncomfy in a  sexual manner, and we can't/don't feel ok speaking up for ourselves must come under the heading of some kind of sexual abuse, be it overt or covert.  ugh - this feels very ugly and distressing.  good to get it out, tho. 

[Rowan]

Well, time for a (TW)


And a gap for folk to click away





Covert abuse. Yes, please let's talk about it, my mother used to watch me bathe until I left home for university (19 years of age), and (still) offers to cut up food for my 40 year old brother....

So that was the memory of today. And the rest of the day has oscillated between feeling ill, disgusted, and numb, numb, numb.

Yes, it's taken me 30 years to work out just how unacceptable that is.

Rowan

[JuniperShadow]

Rowan, that is really unfortunate and a huge disregard for your boundaries. I'm glad you have a place to air these incidents now. Covert can make you feel very alone and questioning if anything really happened. But Rowan lumber is strong and beautiful, with just enough flexibility. You are enough.

[Blueberry]

 

And I'm sorry Rowan that nobody responded to you before. It's usually nothing personal when nobody does, just members' personal overload. I was probably at a loss for words as usual.

Rowan trees also keep evil away.

[Rainydaze]

So is it covert sexual abuse if a situation feels sexualised but isn't necessarily acted upon? NF made me feel so uncomfortable with some of his sexualised remarks towards me but didn't do any outright phyically sexual abuse.

That's where my thoughts are going today. It took a long time for me to realize that what I had experienced was covert SA, but now that I have, I'm starting to see where it may have crossed a line into overt SA. I know that doesn't make my pain more or less valid, but I'm wondering what else is bubbling to the surface. It's hard to feel valid about experiences that aren't... I don't know... obvious? I told my brother once about some of the things and he said, "If you cherry pick incidents like that you could make anyone sound creepy." It's been a while since then and now I know that he was wrong to say that. Boundaries were violated, physical and emotional. It doesn't have to resemble what he thinks SA looks like to be real.

But knowing and feeling are different, and I still struggle with this a lot. Thoughts like, "I shouldn't even post in this part of the forum because my things aren't real enough" go through my head. But the more I read the more it seems like a lot of folks in this forum feel similarly.

I'm so with you on that one, I've felt for a long time like I shouldn't have been so emotionally affected by the sexual undertones I detected from my father. I'm sorry your brother was so dismissive when you shared your experiences with him. I've told a couple of people in the FOO about my own experiences and I think it's been hard for them to register because they were never in the same situation. Plus it causes them to question what they really know about our father and their own relationship with him.