Let's talk about problems with attachment to other people

[marycontrary]

On my other thread, we started talking about attaching too much and not attaching enough with people during sex. I think this attachment issue in general is an important thing to talk about. Maybe we can learn from each other.

Like other people here, I have had too much and too little bonding with various things, situations, and people in life. Inappropriate bonding strategies. Inappropriate Oxytocin release patterns. I am working my tail off try to correct this in myself. I am working to try to re-calibrate my pattern of bonding.

You can see that problems with bonding result in a lot of crazy, seeming illogical behaviors---by us and others. It is like having a beautiful, wild pony inside of us, gotta find a way to tame it---or a lot of destruction will result.

I used to grasp too much to things and people. Now I am suprised how I turned the switch to the other side, and not grasp at all.

My beloved therapist said the other day that he thought I was a feral person. I appreciated his honesty and candor. I am a feral person. I was not insulted.

So now, I am in a detachment phase.  I don't think it will last forever, it is more of a neural remodeling process, methinks.

[Anamiame]

attachment.  That is my biggest issue.  I have three sons and my youngest is a daughter (18).  She is very VERY close to me and I am very cognizant of the fact that I did NOT have a mother/daughter role model as to what is appropriate and what is not.  My daughter will call me and put me on speaker to say hi to her friends (she's a freshman in the dorms and has a group of 12 friends who are close).  My T thinks this is off base.  It sent me into a panic because, I love my daughter--but my concern is NOT attaching to HER.  (I found out they do this with all the moms but I'm the fav right now because I bought them a Christmas dinner).  I can go weeks without talking to my sons and it's not an issue at all. 

I've been celibate for 12 years.  I left my ex a year earlier, but we never divorced (Long story). 

I had a problem with WAYYYY over attaching to my therapists--this neediness that is beyond description that really just re-injured me. 

After three days of sincere soul searching, I realized I am gay.  I've been out for 13 years.  After breaking up with my girlfriend (physically abusive relationship), I chose to not date until my daughter was 16 because my ex physically abused my kids for the word 'fag.'  By the time my daughter turned 16, I was sick and fat from the medications I was on and the truth is, I wouldn't want to date me.  So now I'm just waiting until I have something to give in a relationship. 

So attachment to me, is the key issue for me.  If I do attach, it's wildly dysfunctional and outrageous.  THAT is what I'm currently afraid of in my current therapeutic relationship.  (Let me clarify, now that I KNOW I'm gay, I don't confuse the attachment with sexual desire, so it's not as confusing as it was before)

I have NO idea what a healthy, bonded relationship feels like.  I wouldn't recognize it if it was thrown right in my face. 

[marycontrary]

Amamiame, I totally understand where you are coming from, and I very much empathize.

   

It seems like regulating the bonding system has to do with regulating the fight or flight system. From what I read, we need to experience a veeeeery safe relationship  (maybe with a therapist or somewhat else) in order to dampen the f & f reaction.

I have read that attachment problems can be alleviated and made better as adults. It is not  easy.

Like I said before, I am kind of in a detachment phase, as I used to be much more clingy. I have the sensation that I am being smothered in many, but not all respects. Like my personal space violation trigger gets tripped a lot. It is like I have gone from completely disorganized attachment to avoidant, which is a step "up" in the lesser of two evils.

Here is a paper about establishing secure attachments.
http://undividedjournal.com/2012/11/29/the-ultimate-secure-base-healing-insecure-attachment-in-the-nondual-field/

[Anamiame]

It seems like regulating the bonding system has to do with regulating the fight or flight system. From what I read, we need to experience a veeeeery safe relationship  (maybe with a therapist or somewhat else) in order to dampen the f & f reaction.

It is like I have gone from completely disorganized attachment to avoidant, which is a step "up" in the lesser of two evils.

Mary, both of those statements are very profound to me.  I'm Avoidant now too and never thought of it as a step up, but you are right!  And yeah, it does have to do with fight/flight.  Most definitely!

Thank you so much for those thoughts... it's so right on target!

[marycontrary]

Ana, thanks for such the sweet words 

I can't help but feel that this is a temporary phase in development, if we keep working through it. You know, it is kinda like going on an elimination diet when a person has a food allergy. It is an epic pain in the *, because you remove wheat, soy, corn milk, nuts, etc. etc...THEN you slow reintroduce each group one by one until you discover the offending agent.

Disorganized attachment is the lowest level of development, I have read. It is about the level of a 2-3 year old. Avoidant is about a 5 year old in emotional development. I think that the next leap is into secure attachment, if we condition our fight or flight reflexes properly. I have no idea how long this takes, but I feel it getting nearer for myself.

[coda]

mary, thanks so much for that link. It's dense and difficult in places and I'll have to revisit it, but I identify with so much. One of the (many) points that rang true was acknowledgement mindfulness techniques can play, and the universal distinction between feeling secure with other people and secure within ourselves. Of course they are inextricably linked, and horrible early parenting damages both, but the fact remains that each of us need to "find" our own centers as individuals. Trust is the core. Maybe if we learn to trust ourselves...

Sometimes better adjusted and engaged people often strike me as incredibly shallow, though I envy their apparent ease. They seem to be able to avoid the deepest existential pain, or at least aren't paralyzed by it.  I think I have always thought too much, felt too much...at least that was the accusation. It feels like an inexhaustible (and exhausting!) struggle with past and present. The security I seek, inside and out, materially and emotionally, seems increasingly out of reach. I worry about "inflicting" myself on others, while at the same time feeling greatly wounded by their insensivity. Your remark about the chance to grow (and for me it must be without a therapist) is just so very heartening. Thank you.

[marycontrary]

Coda, that is some really good stuff.   You really put those words in just right, and it rang true to me also. I felt exactly like you before, especially with that "inflicting" thing....I realized  that it was just an illusion. Like you, it is me that felt offended and drained by people's profound lack of empathy. But you know what i found? There are a few people around that actually appreciate a person's sensitivity and just a small handful of people like this can replace thousands of fair weather friends.

Thank you for your kind words.

Like C. said, I am trying to fall in love with myself. I got dressed up and when to a concert and symphony (both free). No less than 13 males greeted me when walking the 3.8 miles to the places. I loved it  I am practicing eye contact and greeting people on the street (it is culturally expected here). I had some fresh juice and had a great time. So I took myself on a date. You realize you are not inflicting as terribly as one thinks one does. But I do feel a detachment right now, no doubt.   

[Anamiame]

Coda; that is me as well.  I wrote this week in my journal that I have to 'protect' people from me in order for me to be safe.  What a paradox that is.  And, personally, I think that is where the worst of the worst pain comes from. 

Others just don't understand.  There's a song by Avril Levine called "Nobody's Home."  and another called "Take Me Away."  They are sort of my mascot songs.  Hope you enjoy them!

[Anamiame]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eLfvdeInFg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao70O2FuJ_U

[C.]

Before discovering the book on CPTSD I read a lot about attachment types and discovered that I tend toward an "anxious" attachment.  In a serious relationship I used to panic at the slightest problem and assume the worst.  My most recent relationship allowed me to practice self-calming and dealing with EF over what to non-traumatized people would not have seemed so serious.  With the help of T., CBT and reading I was able to weather my EF's and reconnect with BF which helped me to not become so anxious with the next trigger and calm myself more quickly.

I'm pretty sure that my father has an avoidant attachment style and my mother has an anxious one.   What a toxic mix.  My exH is disorganized.  My previous BF's were usually disorganized or avoidant.  I think my recent BF actually had a more normal, healthy attachment style.

Maybe we need another thread on falling in love with ourselves?  haha I like the concept of falling in love b/c of the action that it requires.  I can't just just sit back and hope that it happens.  I love your description of your date with yourself Mary.  When I think and act in this way it does contribute to my happiness and it also seems to feel compassionate b/c I accept that I may not feel love for myself, I may feel insecure but that's ok cause I'm working on it!

I like to cook myself a nice meal, dress up and do anything lol!  a movie, a concert, etc.  I met someone who sends herself birthday, mother's day, and valentine cards.  Actually selects, signs, and posts them in the mail, sweet!

[voicelessagony2]

Very interesting thoughts and experiences related to attachment.

I wonder if I'm still disorganized attachment? I'll have to do some research.

My attachments are one extreme or another... either I'm extremely attached instantaneously to someone, (this only happens with intimate partners... no such thing as "casual sex" for me) or I could care less if I never talk to them. Mostly the latter. It's not a feeling of animosity, it's just total complete apathy.

The weird thing is how my behavior conflicts with the attachment feelings. I rarely ever get flat-out rejected by an intimate partner; it's usually me cutting ties because something about the situation becomes intolerable to me, and I feel powerless to change it, so I don't even try. The last time this happened, the guy I dated before I met R, I recently thought how strange that I was SO heartbroken for SO long, but I never even once asked him to change or correct the thing I saw as a deal breaker. I chewed off my leg and ran for my life, (figuratively) and then literally contemplated suicide. It makes no sense whatsoever. The guy probably never had any idea, and probably even wondered how I could be so cold and never see or hear from me again.

With female friends, there are a couple who reach out to me once in a while, but I never initiate. I am grateful when they do, and I always respond, but they are probably getting tired of the one-sided nature, and I hear from them less and less. And I don't care.

[schrödinger's cat]

I worry about "inflicting" myself on others, while at the same time feeling greatly wounded by their insensivity.

Yes, that, exactly. I didn't think anyone else ever felt that way. I used to either keep the h*ll away from people, or fling myself at them and tell them aaaall about my life story, desperately seeking help. Later, I began to realize that it's okay to make friends... but once I had them, I kind of didn't know what precisely to do with them. It became this scary, unpredictable thing. I usually withdrew. That's probably disorganized attachment?

It's good to know that becoming avoidant is actually a step up... I'm avoidant now, with a very few exceptions. I'm hoping it will get better once I've exorcized a bit more of the harm my FOO has done.

I'm reading a book called "The Narcissistic Family". It's about families where the children have to fulfill the needs of the parent system.  So even if there isn't an actual narcissist involved, the parenting style itself can be narcissistic, either overtly or covertly. An overtly narcissistic family would be a clearly dysfunctional one. A covertly narcissistic family would be one that looks fine on the outside - the kids are fed, no one beats anyone up, no one's drinking or taking drugs. In either case, the kids commonly show symptoms that are usually only found in Adult Children of Alcoholics.

[marycontrary]

Yup, that sounds exactly like an attachment issues. And I am also an ACOA.

If there is one thing I cannot forgive the perpetrators for, it is for the destruction of bond formation development. There is nothing that I have lived with that has caused so much suffering.

Well, I am trying to practice.

[voicelessagony2]

Wow I didn't expect to see myself in that list... but nearly every behavior matched. ACOA, hmmm...

[schrödinger's cat]

Same here. That list fit in an overwhelming number of details - but there's no addict in my family, no alcoholic, no nothing. I couldn't explain it at all until I started reading that book.