Emotional incest

[Rainydaze]

Something triggered me into a flashback today where I felt creeped out and violated. A couple of my NF's comments came to me that made me feel sick. I couldn't speak about them as a child and didn't necessarily understand that they were inappropriate, as in not full-on sexual abuse but comments with a sexual undertone which made me feel massively uncomfortable. One example is when I was eating as an 8 or 9 year old and dropped a bit of food down my front, the way that children of that age do. He pointed this out in front of my granddad and said, "You dropped food down your cleavage" which I didn't understand. My granddad laughed and NF looked smug. Looking back this was just such a weird thing to say and it grosses me out now I do understand what a cleavage is. How can anyone relate that to their 8 year old little girl? There was also a time around a similar age that he had a friend round and tricked me into reading a story next to a topless photo of a 'glamour' model in his newspaper, then loudly exclaimed that I was being dirty for staring at the woman. I don't think this was right. Dads shouldn't do things like this, right?

Another one that continues to upset me is when my mother died and I started to do our washing together. He pointed at the dirty washing as I loaded it in and said something along the lines of, "What do you think about our underwear swirling about together in there?" It makes me feel sick. He also made comments out of the blue about my body on a couple of occasions when I had hit puberty and said that he had noticed it changing. All this made me feel so uncomfortable. He never acted on anything but the comments still feel perverted and dirty to me and really not the type of thing you should be saying to your daughter. I feel like it really damaged my confidence and made me self-conscious and ashamed.

We don't speak anymore but I think if I had ever have confronted him on this then I would have been told that I was overreacting and couldn't take a joke. I never laughed though. I never felt happy to see him as a child and just seemed to be an object of ridicule much of the time. Then he wondered why I was distant from him and didn't want to be around him the way I did with my mother, which made me feel like I was inept in some way and guilty because frankly as a little girl I didn't understand why I felt the way I did towards him either. I thought I was the problem.

Sorry not sure if this is in the right place or if any of it is particularly coherent or not. Just felt like I needed to get this out of my head.   

[Blueberry]

I'm really sorry to hear how your F treated you blues_cruise! I think his wording like 'cleavage' is strange and inappropriate. and his comments, yuck! No, dads shouldn't do and say things like that to their daughters or any other little girls.

Off the top of my head, I would understand something different under "emotional incest". I think it is used as a synonym for "emotional abuse" but I could be wrong. Obviously you suffered that too, but imo this post could just as well be in the CSA section as here. This type of CSA was not done to me, but I've heard of it before, heard people with cptsd mention it. So you're not alone. If it feels uncomfortable, that's a pretty sure sign imho of something being 'off'.

Ridicule, too.  I had to put up with so much of that (though not on sexual topics). It was terrible. It took me a long time to realise that that was a form of emotional abuse all on its own. Overreacting? Can't take a joke? Yeah, I've heard all that before. Strangely enough, FOO themselves weren't too good at jokes at their expense. 

if they feel safe, otherwise just sitting quietly with you.

[California Dreaming]

Hi blues_cruise I am the father of a 23-year-old daughter. What your NF said and did was a violation of healthy boundaries betwen a daughter and her F! Your 8-year-old little girl was exposed to a perverted F. It is natural for her not to be able to relate to sexual remarks. I am very sorry that you had to go through this and for so many years. I admire your courage for giving your little girl a voice. I believe this will go a long way in healing this particular wounding.

[Hope67]

Hi Blues_Cruise,
I agree with what Blueberry and California Dreaming said - and I think what your F did was NOT RIGHT.  He violated healthy boundaries between a daughter and her F.   

My F also did that, and I was very small when he did, and I really really relate to what you're saying - and I want to offer your 8 year old self a very safe and comforting hug  and I'm also glad that you've been able to speak up on her behalf.

I wrote about some of my experiences in the CSA section of the forum, but I have also related very much to a book about 'Emotional Abuse' that was written by Patricia Love, and I think (from my memory) that 'emotional abuse' was referred to as being when an adult uses his/her child to meet the needs of that adult, and so it could be sexual, or emotional or physical - it could take many different guises, but the thing is, that whatever way it is expressed, it isn't healthy to do that.  Adults should meet their needs through themselves and their adult partner - NOT through their children.

I found the book by Patricia Love to be really helpful - I think I'll re-read it sometime - as it's a while since I read it.

I am very very sorry that you had to experience those things, and I am very very sorry that I experienced things like that too - it has had a significant impact on me, I know that.  In many ways. 

Blues_Cruise - I don't know what else to say, except I'm standing with you, and your Little Blues_Cruise - Little Hope appreciates very much how brave you are to speak out about this, and it wasn't right.

Hope 

[Rainydaze]

Thank you all.  It feels so amazing to get validation after sharing this and to not simply be ignored. I tried telling my mum about a shower incident that I was uncomfortable with at the age of about 12 (I've spoken about this in a post before but basically, he picked the lock and broke in to the bathroom against my will while I was showering) and she didn't do anything or even particularly react. I've also disclosed a couple of things to people offline but they don't seem to register how much of an effect it had on me or how much of a violation it felt.

Off the top of my head, I would understand something different under "emotional incest". I think it is used as a synonym for "emotional abuse" but I could be wrong. Obviously you suffered that too, but imo this post could just as well be in the CSA section as here. This type of CSA was not done to me, but I've heard of it before, heard people with cptsd mention it. So you're not alone. If it feels uncomfortable, that's a pretty sure sign imho of something being 'off'.

Ridicule, too.  I had to put up with so much of that (though not on sexual topics). It was terrible. It took me a long time to realise that that was a form of emotional abuse all on its own. Overreacting? Can't take a joke? Yeah, I've heard all that before. Strangely enough, FOO themselves weren't too good at jokes at their expense. 

Thanks Blueberry.  It's always been a weird one to wrap my head around because he was always suggestive rather than physical, so I've never quite known how to classify it. When my mum died he did seem to want me to take over her role, expecting me to spend time with him doing the things that they would have done together. It felt so abnormal, like he was treating me as a wife rather than  a daughter. As you say, feeling uncomfortable is a sign that things aren't right. It was just...yuck.

Yeah, the ridicule was very covert and undermining. It seemed like he thought I was worthless for being a child and being powerless and he loved the power it gave him to set me up to look and feel stupid. I think it's really damaging to have that happen to you as a child because you grow up with no self-esteem and find it hard to trust people, or at least that's what happened to me. It's annoying too that I was so quiet and had such little self-esteem because of this and that adults treated me like I was just shy and odd rather than investigating why I was that way. My mum would often apologetically say to people, "Oh, she's just shy" as though that's all that defined me and that it was my fault. I feel like I was really let down.

Hi blues_cruise I am the father of a 23-year-old daughter. What your NF said and did was a violation of healthy boundaries betwen a daughter and her F! Your 8-year-old little girl was exposed to a perverted F. It is natural for her not to be able to relate to sexual remarks. I am very sorry that you had to go through this and for so many years. I admire your courage for giving your little girl a voice. I believe this will go a long way in healing this particular wounding.

Thanks California Dreaming.  Very helpful to have the perspective of the father of a young adult. It does help to give little me a voice and nowadays whenever an emotional flashback arises I try to work through it rather than stuffing it down again. I've been feeling quite sad about this one over the last few days but realise that the best way through is to look after myself and remind myself of where the blame really lies. I assumed I was 'wrong' in some way for so many years.

My F also did that, and I was very small when he did, and I really really relate to what you're saying - and I want to offer your 8 year old self a very safe and comforting hug  and I'm also glad that you've been able to speak up on her behalf.

I wrote about some of my experiences in the CSA section of the forum, but I have also related very much to a book about 'Emotional Abuse' that was written by Patricia Love, and I think (from my memory) that 'emotional abuse' was referred to as being when an adult uses his/her child to meet the needs of that adult, and so it could be sexual, or emotional or physical - it could take many different guises, but the thing is, that whatever way it is expressed, it isn't healthy to do that.  Adults should meet their needs through themselves and their adult partner - NOT through their children.

I found the book by Patricia Love to be really helpful - I think I'll re-read it sometime - as it's a while since I read it.

I am very very sorry that you had to experience those things, and I am very very sorry that I experienced things like that too - it has had a significant impact on me, I know that.  In many ways. 

Blues_Cruise - I don't know what else to say, except I'm standing with you, and your Little Blues_Cruise - Little Hope appreciates very much how brave you are to speak out about this, and it wasn't right.

Thank you, Hope, and I'm sorry you went through similar. I've just had a look at the book on Amazon and it looks extremely helpful so I'm going to order myself a copy. I've done loads of reading about covert narcissism in general but not so much on emotional, sexualised abuse. It is good to finally feel like I can talk about it and to have a safe place to do so. It took me a long time to connect to little blues_cruise and listen to her and I'm so glad I've got a safe place to figure this stuff out. 

[Rowan]

 



Hi Blues _cruise, the hugs are for your little one, she deserves it - it takes real courage to talk about the things that upset us greatly. As you're discovering, you're not alone in this. Parentification is another term for emotional incest - and sadly I understand your perspective all too well, as it's almost a mirror of mine (a long story that will need tea).

My bathing was 'supervised' by my M until I left home for university, so I can relate, and I had forgotten the 'your changing' comments For me that was just one aspect of parentification, M and I sold the family home one afternoon, I was always expected to be the confidant and emotional prop, the fixer of mischief, the navigator when M was too drunk for NF who cannot recognise locations, or places, the list goes on. It's only on reflection now, some 3 and a bit decades later that I am starting to see this as wrong, a fundamental violation of our boundaries...

Rowan

[Phoebes]

Hi Blues,

I just wanted to chime in and support you in your instincts and observations that none of what your F was saying/doing was appropriate and you were right for feeling so. It so hard to put your finger on as a child, and certainly had you had the wherewithall to stand up to it at the time you would have been shot down and gaslighted. It's a no-win.

The underwear comment made be cringe. But also, reminds me of the type of stuff my grandpa would say. Similar very inappropriate covert stuff. Like when I hit puberty and little comments about my short shorts and being a "growing woman." After all of these kinds of comments in the presence of my parents and GM, and then his touching and saying other weird stuff, if I made ANY protest whatsoever I was told I was taking him wrong, couldn't take a joke, making him out to be a dirty old man, etc..I was just a young girl, and no one supported my feeling of unease.

Being that the topic of my inappropriate (to say the least) GP has always been a set-up for gaslighting, and it's one of the reasons I'm NC with Nm now, and was VLC with GM until she died, I still am sensitive and hypervigilant, but I think rightfully so. Where society can overlook these little covert comments, I am in tune with what they mean. They are a red flag there is something very not right. Like this older man commenting how much he liked my niece's hairstyle when they were alone at the water fountain. Benign to most people but I don't think an old man thinking about or commenting about a girl's looks points to anything healthy.

I'm sorry to go off. I can very much relate to these disturbing commetns coming from men in your life that are supposed to show you the kind of man you'd want to marry, not make you feel ashamed and unnerved. It makes me so mad still. I'm really sorry to hear you had this type of experience too. I really do understand.

[Kizzie]

...they don't seem to register how much of an effect it had on me or how much of a violation it felt

Coming from a covertly emotionally abusive FOO I had quite a reaction (cringe, anger) to what you went through too Blues. To anyone who has not been subjected to seemingly covert trauma ("seemingly" because it becomes very overt once you know what you're looking at or so I've found), it's not the type of visible, big T trauma that almost everyone can identify and understand unfortunately.  Hopefully we are helping to change that.

It's clear to me also that it was a huge violation and would definitely had a traumatizing effect on younger you though.  Sending along another hug for younger who went through that and adult you who has to learn how to live with these memories.