Unsure about therapy

[Libby183]

I would really like some thoughts and ideas on whether I should continue with therapy.  I have had eleven sessions of EMDR,  and it seems that the therapist is bringing it to an end. Several people,  including eyesofblue,  have said that the NHS limits therapy to twelve weeks at a time.  So it might not really be an issue.  But I have many questions and doubts anyway!

A few days ago,  I had a terrible meltdown over something really silly.  I probably felt nearer to doing myself harm than I have done in a long time.  I felt I was doing so well but then a minor setback, which denied me my peaceful day which I had been so looking forward to,  sent me over the edge.

All I could think was, my mother was right.  I don't deserve to be happy. If I dare to have an expectation of happiness then I will be brought right back down to reality.  How dare I think I can have a nice day,  after a week of running around after my family.  I don't resent the time I gave them. I was just so tired and needed some rest. It sounds silly,  but I felt as if the universe or fate or whatever was on the side of my mother.  I was fooling myself,  my recovery was a joke,  she was right about me all along.  This proved she had won. Over the top, but that's how I really feel.

The actual emdr seems to have helped with traumatic memories and at the moment,  I have much less physical pain. So that's all good. But whilst in the midst of my breakdown,  I was very aware of my last therapy session.  My therapist stressed so much how my parents couldn't have helped how they treated me. That was their "quirks". She actually used that word. She restated how they could never admit to anything because any admission of their abuse would be more than they could bear. She also said how it was highly likely that I was too talkative,  inquisitive,  demanding etc, based on her judgement of my personality now, that my mother couldn't cope with me. I was too much for her fragile ego. Probably true, but sounds awfully like blaming little me, for just being me, just being a child. I accept all of this as accurate,  but faced with a trial, it just fed into my belief that I have no control, am weak and powerless.  In fact,  I am all of the concepts that the emdr was challenging.

She also spent quite a lot of time discussing her own,  less than perfect, relationship with her own mother.

I feel ashamed,  a failure,  hopeless. I trusted to therapy, despite a lack of trust in most things.  I am not sure whether, overall, it has has been good for me. My abuse has been validated but it seems to have come back full circle.  My parents were who they were, I didn't suit them and I have to suck it up. And, of  course,  times were different when I was growing up! Surely some parents loved their children and wanted what was best for them, even in the 70's!! If I go back for a final session,  I feel like I will have to pretend to be fixed, because that's what is expected of me, after the NHS has funded this treatment.

I hate how bitter and hateful I sound.

Would really appreciate some feedback, but just writing this down has been helpful.

If you got through all of this, thank you so much.

Libby.

[Hope67]

Hi Libby,
I am glad you've posted this, and asked for comments - because yesterday I'd read some things you'd said in other posts, and I had been thinking about what you'd said, and I really wanted to write something to you - to respond in some way to the things you were communicating - but I held back, because you'd posted in other threads and I didn't want to hijack them.  Also, I wanted to allow my thoughts to settle a bit - and be reflective - as I acknowledged that some of the things you said made me feel 'angry on your behalf' and that made me wonder where my anger was coming from, and I also accepted that it was probably because I do feel as if I relate to you - in terms of having a NM and an enabling F, and being estranged for a similar number of years, and also to the fact that you said you weren't able to communicate how you felt 'directly to your M' - and I also have felt like that.

I was particularly 'angry' at what I feel is your T talking about her own relationship with her M - because essentially she passed on the view that because she had felt able to forgive her own M, that had helped her to heal - well I'm pleased for her that she was able to do that, but to say that the 'same' should be the case for you - I think that is inappropriate - because I don't think there's a right or wrong to it, we have to deal with things the way that feels best to ourselves. 

I was looking for articles online about 'forgiveness' and I could see there were quite a few views on it.  I have also read things in the past, and I was pleased to see that there are therapists and writers who say that it is not necessary to forgive, and in some cases, may not be appropriate at all.

This one for example:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-compassion-chronicles/200803/forgive-or-not-forgive-is-the-question

I remember the time I had some therapy - which is about 5 years ago now - or maybe longer - I can't remember - but my T was clear that trying to communicate further with my FOO wasn't in my best interest - and she didn't speak of forgiveness as being a way forward, she did speak about cutting off and estranging - completely - which had surprised me at the time - but I know she was right, and I am glad that she put that as an option - because I might not have considered it otherwise, and taken a different path that would have been truly detrimental to me.

Libby - I can completely understand how special and important it was for you to enjoy that day to yourself, and I am so sorry that you weren't able to do that.  But I don't think your M is right - in any respect - and the Universe isn't saying she was right - although I am sure it did feel like that to you at the time.  The thing is that Little Libby had every right to be a questioning, bright and lovely child, and I just wish she and Little Hope could have had parents who appreciated that kind of very normal and enquiring mind.

to you Libby - both to Little Libby and to Adult Libby.    standing with you.

I know you're asking about whether you should continue your therapy, and I probably haven't really replied to that bit, because I don't really know what to say about it.  Your T has 'annoyed' me by things she's said - and so I find it hard to relate to her - but I do know that you were speaking positively of aspects of the EMDR therapy - and maybe that is something to try to continue - I've seen so many people say it's helpful - and you were experiencing being more 'alive' - as I remember you mentioning that.

Maybe it's also making you feel the more difficult emotions too - and maybe that's not a bad thing!  Anger is meant to be felt to a degree, and emotions may be better out than in.

Sorry - I am writing so much - I hope some of it will be helpful. 

Whatever you decide to do, Libby, know that I'm standing with you - as long as that's ok.

Hope 

[Blueberry]

Libby, I read through. There are so many things that occur to me I feel overwhelmed.

Let's see. I have had Ts in the past who talked about their own lives and what they went through and how they deal now and usually got annoyed. My present T never does. I know nothing about his personal life. I like it this way. He focusses on me and how I can deal with my parents and sibs considering how they treat(ed) me.

Quirks??!? I don't know your story off-hand but if you'Re dealing with childhood-onset cptsd then I'm sure those weren't 'quirks'. Either abuse or neglect, emotional, physical or sexual (or the whole lot).

I don't hear you being bitter and hateful. It sounds as if you're hurt, angry too maybe and you're trying to figure out how to proceed in healing. Totally legit.

Similar to Hope's T, mine has made clear to me that there's no point in trying to discuss or negotiate with people who constantly "don't understand". He hasn't said to go NC probably because Ts have told me too often in the past to do particular things I wasn't ready for.

There have discussions on here too on forgiveness. We do not all forgive our abusers and their enablers! Anyway, I don't think real forgivess is something you can decide to do with your head.

Healing under the NHS sounds difficult. 12 sessions on, then a few months break... Get who you're given. Quite possibly somebody who doesn't really get cptsd. It sounds as if your therapy has been helpful to a degree. Can you talk in your next session about what the previous session 'did' to you? Unless you think or know she'll just deny and make you feel even worse. Maybe your 'meltdown' was an EF brought about partially by what your T said, and not just your feeling really tired and not getting that day for yourself? Whatever the reason, I doubt it was 'silly'. It's often seemingly minor things that trigger us.

You do deserve to be happy, just like everybody else in the world!    for Adult Libby and Little Libby

[California Dreaming]

Hi Libby. I put therapists in one of three categories: helpful, neutral, or harmful. Based on what you have described, I would place your therapist in the harmful category. Our healing from cptsd comes through relationship. In my opinion, your therapist's words are retraumatizing. We can't heal in the context of retraumatization. Instead of healing the wounds, they remain open. The goal of therapy is to heal the wounds and let them scar over, not keep them open or deepen them. I cannot speak for you. I can say with certainty that I would remove myself immediately from a therapist who is harming me. I realize you may not see the situation that way but wanted to share what came up for me when reading your post.

[Eyessoblue]

Hi Libby, I'm so sorry for you, this is all so wrong with what your therapist is telling you. First of all to judge your personality after a few weeks of knowing you then to say that your parents couldn't cope with how you were etc is such a poor thing to say, then to start talking about her own family sounds to me she has her own issues that need resolving. I can't help but think this therapist has been a poor match for you and to tell you all this when you've nearly finished therapy would of course send you spiralling backwards. No wonder your feeling like you are.
Can I suggest that you do go back and see her on Tuesday and voice all these concerns to her, I feel you're a bit like me and although the emdr has generally worked well for you, you're now at the point of needing answers to lots of things that have come up, you mentally won't rest and will best yourself up about how and what you're feeling, you can't be left to cope with this yourself you need the help of an expert.
I learnt through my own therapy with the nhs that as an nhs patient you have every right to ask for what help you need and also if you don't feel it's working with a particular therapist you have the right to ask to see someone else, my therapist who thankfully I got on really well with said that therapists are used to moving people to see someone else, they don't get offended and it's a very normal thing to do. Can I suggest that you tell her that you feel you still need more help and ask if you can see a person specialising in trauma to continue now with counselling now that the emdr is finishing.
No doubt like me it will be another waiting list for you, but I'm worried for you that now the emdr is ending you don't want to just be written off and left to cope on your own. I hope this helps.

[Libby183]

Thank you all for taking so much time to listen to me and to respond.  Everything you all said was really helpful since it made me think, rather than just accepting that therapy had failed, that there was some progress amidst breakdown. I think you are right, Blueberry,  in suggesting my losing it was an EF. Looking back, I can see how I  felt like a powerless child again, up against an all powerful mother. She told me I can never be happy,  and I still believe her, deep down. I just don't feel that the emdr has dealt with the real essence of my mother's abuse. If we had focused on that,  then maybe I could have accepted more fully the belief that it was no one's fault, blame, responsibility.  I was just unfortunate to have a damaged mother.

However,  suggesting it was my fault for being me, seems to be taking things too far. Thank you Hope for validating me with such passion.  It means the world to me.  My therapist clearly had some issues with her parents, but there are degrees,  aren't there?

However,  Hope, I think you made a really good point.  With therapy and without the emotional numbing of antidepressants,  I am experiencing more. I am even open to the idea that my therapist threw the idea of my abuse being "my fault"  as a sort of test.

( My husband agrees with you,  california dreaming,  she is dangerous and I should give her a wide berth).

Having got over the EF and experienced a lot of emotions around it, I have made my own mind up. Quite an achievement, as I usually
assume everyone in any sort of "power"  is right and I am wrong.  She is wrong on this. I was a damaged person and yet I was able to try an give my children what they needed,  even though all three were very different in what they needed.  I am sorry,  but even in harder times in the past,  people still put their children first and loved them. When I paid attention to my young children,  and talked about what they wanted to talk about,  my nm was very clear that she did not approve of me. It was said out loud on many an occasion.

Eyesofblue, your summary of where we find ourselves at the end of a course of emdr seems spot on. Still so much left unresolved!

So, with all of your thoughts and ideas in mind, I am toying with the idea of going for what could be my final session, as suggested by eyesofblue. With an open mind, but with the intention that this will be my final session with her, whatever.  I have spent my life in avoidance so perhaps this is progress. Taking what I want from the therapy but rejecting what I don't. 

This healing truly is a process,  but the feedback from you all really helps to work through it all.

Will let you know if I go or not, and what the outcome is.

Take care everyone.

Libby.

[Blueberry]

Sounds like tons of progress, Libby. Yay you! 

Did I express myself badly and suggest somehow it was your fault because of your EF? That's not what I meant at all. I don't agree at all with your T that things were your 'own fault' as a child (or now) for you being you.

Yes, healthy parents put their own children first. At least that's what i'm beginning to learn. My parents didn't and nor did your M.

[Hope67]

I also say 'Yay You!' Libby - I can see lots of progress made too - and I wish you the best with your next session, and hope that you can express all the things you want to say.

Hope 

[Libby183]

Thank you for support,  Hope.  I'll keep you updated.

Thanks Blueberry.  You certainly didn't express yourself badly.  I really think it was a big EF and certainly didn't get the idea that you were blaming me. Quite the opposite,  being very supportive.

I have definitely decided to go tomorrow as I really want to understand how what she said fits into the framework of emdr.  I am sure I can be completely calm and rational (unless I am in an EF) and I am just desperate to understand how these things fit together.  Afterwards,  I will hopefully have enough information to decide whether to continue,  if that is available.

Thanks to both of you.

Libby.

[Eyessoblue]

So pleased Libby, you know what the nhs is like, if you give up they don't care they think you're not interested without even considering what's going on for you. Please stick with it, get all the help you can and deserve, you know again, in the uk, so many people 'milk' the system for secondary gain benefits,you are someone that needs help and totally deserves it, don't give up, keep fighting, I'm right behind you !! You will become so much a stronger person, you will get through it, keep believing and you will get there!!! Please let me know how you get on, I totally relate and get how you're feeling, pm if you ever need to. X

[Libby183]

Hi everyone.

Thought I would check in and update you about my session today.  It didn't go terribly well, to say the least.

The main issue we discussed was around my meltdown last week.  She said it was a result of pushing myself too much so that was fine. I tried to explain that I was generally very up and down in mood,  and that, on one day, I could feel compassion and forgiveness for  my mother,  but on another day,  when I was stressed,  I could be back to hating her. She said that I had not been honest with her.

Because things weren't going well, and based on her view of my parents,  I asked her if she believed in the idea of narcissistic abuse and she said she did not. She said that parenting is very difficult and no parent is perfect and that my parents did what they needed to do to survive with their fragile egos intact. I find it hard to view this as anything other than her saying my suffering is down to my attitude to my parents.  I have always questioned whether this is, in fact,  the case, as this is what my parents always told me was the problem.  But it is me asking for help, not them,  so shouldn't she try to help me, not blame me. A lot more was said,  very calmly,  with some tears from me, but it was concluded that I don't wish to recover and that I must have my own reasons for wanting to hold on to my anger and to not move on and heal. I said that I wanted to but simply didn't get how. That was what I wanted therapy for.

We parted on friendly terms but I won't continue and I suspect she guessed that and said it was entirely up to me if and how therapy continued.

So much of what was said seemed very inconsistent and I have been left confused. It was a last ditch attempt to feel more happy in myself and to see if I could get more out of life. I think I will steer clear of doctors,  medications and therapists in future. It just seems to mean more invalidation and trauma.

Sorry I can't be any more upbeat, but thank you so much for listening.   Any thoughts would be gratefully accepted as, at the moment,  I can't help feeling that the official view is that therapy only fails when the patient doesn't want to get better!

Take care.

Libby

[Hope67]

Dear Libby,
Thank you for letting us know how your session went today - I was thinking of you.   I am sorry to hear that you didn't feel it went terribly well - I suspected it was going to be challenging to communicate with that Therapist, as she did appear to have an agenda of her very own, based on her own experiences with her parents.  I'm glad you asked her if she believed in the concept or possibility of 'narcissistic abuse' - because her answer clearly shows that she isn't likely to have experienced that particular set of dynamics with her own parents, and therefore - again - I just think she wasn't able to empathise or understand what you've been through, and what you've experienced.

I am disappointed to hear that she said to you that you hadn't been honest with her!  Surely she should take what you say as an honest appraisal of your thoughts and feelings at the time, and shouldn't be judging you in that way. 

I feel exasperated at her attitude. 

The fact is that you have noticed that "so much of what was said seemed very inconsistent" - and that does therefore suggest that there wasn't really a pattern of stability within this therapy - you didn't feel 'held' by her or supported - by the sound of things - I don't know - but that's what I would imagine. 

Libby - I think you did well to pursue the therapy to the end of the sessions, and I remember that yesterday you spoke of taking the positives from it and rejecting the rest - that sounded like a sensible approach.

I really really hope that you will possibly look on this not as a 'last ditch attempt to feel more happy and to see if you can get more out of life' - because I really hope you WILL be able to do both of those things - there are lots of resources and self-help information - I really hope that you'll find something that will help you forward. 

You were feeling more 'alive' - you said you felt that way - and whilst this may feel like a darker patch - due to the disappointment of the therapists' attitude and words - I hope very much that you won't take them to heart, because you are a lovely person Libby.

to you Libby - and if you ever want to PM me, don't hesitate. 

Hope 

[Eyessoblue]

Hi Libby, like hope I was thinking about you too. I'm absolutely gutted for you and think this therapist sounds like she doesn't have a clue, she clearly has her own ideas if not 'issues' about parenting and abuse and as for saying about you not wanting to get better is really ridiculous, I actually can't believe she said that but wonder if it's because she knows in some way she's failed you and to cover up her failing is to blame you so it makes her look better?
I'm so disappointed but also worried for you, you sound very similar to me in a lot of ways and I know I still need a lot of help, this waiting list game is a killer and as I've said before every time I get discharged and have to wait for the next therapy I spiral back to where I started so in some ways aren't achieving a lot.
I know you've had a bad experience but is there anyway you could find a different therapist? Either privately or asking to be re referred on the nhs, you probably don't feel like that now but I'm wondering if you will do in a couple of weeks. Trying to get through this alone is so difficult obviously you have this site to help you but I'm wondering if you'll need more?
Take good care of yourself and please keep us informed on how you're getting on.

[Blueberry]

I'm sorry that your session didn't go as well as you might have hoped.

She said that parenting is very difficult and no parent is perfect and that my parents did what they needed to do to survive with their fragile egos intact. ... but it was concluded that I don't wish to recover and that I must have my own reasons for wanting to hold on to my anger and to not move on and heal.

I have heard this type of stuff before and it has invariably been from Ts / docs who were not trauma-informed. Particularly comments like "well, if you don't follow my advice, then you obviously don't want to heal" drove me up the wall  ! Just the sort of thing M would say. Not helping me become autonomous at all.

Yeah, parents aren't perfect, it's true. That's what my parents always said too, that was their excuse. Did they try and get help when I was a child? No. Did yours? Probably not. Are they now (if still alive)? Probably not. Are you and I? Yes. That's the difference. Parents who care about their children and better parenting skills get help. They did what they did (acc. to your T) to keep their fragile egos intact. And what about the fragile ego of you, their child? No need to consider that? Well, I guess not according to them or your T. Excuse me while I have a little rant: 

I believe that we can retain anger and still move onwards to healing. Maybe we don't get 100% healing (I doubt that exists for cptsd anyway), but we can certainly move forwards. Supressing feelings (whether anger or joy or whatever) is meant to contribute to depression. Anger can be a very positive force, it depends what you do with it. Anger at abusive (or 'just' neglectful) parents? My T finds it totally legit for me. When I express anger in therapy, my energy and vitality return, blockages unblock and things get moving. I don't see why that would be wrong.

10 years ago in my area of the country (which isn't the UK), I couldn't find a T with this working modus. I kept looking, taking a break from looking, looking again etc. So please don't give up! Things may improve in the UK in the next few years in this respect, as more information reaches the medical / psychological professions.

Therapy fails when the therapist is using the wrong method for the disorder or injury. Therapy fails when the therapist is overwhelmed and/or underqualified. Therapy fails when the therapist doesn't get outside help / advice when overwhelmed or lacking specialisation OR when the therapist can't admit this to the patient. Therapy fails when the therapist doesn't keep their own bugbears out of sessions with their patients. Therapy maybe even fails if therapists don't continue to look at their own issues (not sure about the last one, since I'm not a T).

[Libby183]

Thank you all, as ever, for your thoughtful and sensitive replies. I thought I would just have a few days thinking about where I feel I am at the moment,  before posting again.  And I do think that I have worked through quite a few issues.

I think that I have definitely had enough of the therapy.  It was helpful to a point,  but as the therapist didn't appear to believe in the nature of my abuse, then it was unlikely that she could address it.  She has left me with real doubts about whether I did indeed suffer any harsh treatment at the hands of my parents. If I accept this, then I am left with horrendous shame at my behaviour and amazing levels of guilt that I abandoned my parents when they were getting old. So, that is the reason I was holding onto my anger at them. This is why she said that the therapy wasn't successful - because I was holding onto my hatred for a reason.  It was protective for me. Probably true, but now I feel very,  very ashamed of myself. 

What the therapy also pushed me towards accepting was that I have used being a parent for my own ends, and this was exactly what I accused my mother of. The process was a bit different - my mother knocked me down to make her feel better about herself,  whereas I built my children up so that I could feel like I had been a good mother, so that I could feel superior to my mother. The therapist was very critical of me as a mother,  saying that the role of a parent,  or so she was told by friends who had children, was to prepare them for life and send them off into the world.  Absolutely what I have done with my dd. The fact that my boys are still at home and somewhat reliant on my h and I for practical support,  is not my fault.  I would love them to leave home at some point and have a great,  independent life. It may happen.  But, despite practical help, which just keeps the house running smoothly,  they are absolutely their own people.  They are not at all emotionally dependent on me. Quite the opposite.  When I pointed out that this ideal was not given to me by my mother,  she became exasperated with me!!

I could go on for ages about all of the inconsistencies in her advice and instructions,  but that would just mirror my relationship with my mother.  In fact,  I realised that the therapy had come to feel just like a run-in with my mother. Therapist telling me that the problems are only in my head, and that I just need to get over myself and me feeling angry.  Feels so familiar and I suppose that in therapy terms, this proves that the problem lies within me and my decision that I do not want to heal. What really proved this to me was that she dismissed my neuropathic pain and very poor eyesight with a discussion of her need for glasses and the fact that she has osteoarthritis and something else that causes her chronic spinal pain, for which she does a lot of yoga. It occurred to me after the session that my final meeting with my mother ended on an almost identical note,  regarding eyesight.  Weird!!

So, anyway,  no more therapy and no more antidepressants,  so no more visits to the gp.  Actually,  that is a plus of therapy.  I have been cured of the desire to seek help. I know now that I can make my own decisions about myself.  And that is what I am practising now. I think this experience of therapy has made me feel even more ashamed of myself,  so I think I will continue to avoid people a lot.  But the upside is that I have made that decision for myself, with confidence,  rather than feeling guilty for avoiding and so forcing myself to connect when I didn't really want to. That probably doesn't sound like it makes sense when written down,  but in my head it makes sense.

I am so thankful for OOTS and everyone here.  My therapist said it was not good for me to read so much and come here and interact.  Well, I have decided that I disagree with her
Why shouldn't I have one place where I feel truly accepted and feel that I belong?

Big hugs for the whole OOTS community!

Libby.